Opinions Please - Getting first scope mid year!

[SubElement]

So I've been thinking about getting into Astronomy for a while now, and with this year's Tax Return looking to be substantial (for a student :P) I am going to take the plunge.

I have a close friend who is really into Astronomy, and has been giving me a lot of great advice, but is always somewhat hesitant because he doesn't want to feel responsible if he tells me one thing, and it doesn't meet my expectations.

So, I've been doing some research and I have pretty much come down to two, maybe three, scopes that I am looking for. After observing the optical perfection and clarity that is apochromatic, I am quite adamant in getting an apochromatic refractor. I will mainly be using the scope for planetary viewing with some DSO, and eventually get into Astrophotography. These two are what I've come down with.

Williams Optics ZenithStar 80 II + Skywatcher HEQ5PRO Mount - $839 + $1050 = $1889

That gives me the OTA, Mount, Hard Case, RDF + Bracket and 1.25" dielectric diagonal.

Skywatcher ED80 PRO + Skywatcher HEQ5PRO Mount - $1750

That gives me the OTA, Mount, 9 x 50 finderscope, 2" diagonal (non dielectric) and LET 5mm and 20mm eyepieces.

Now the ZS80II has a FPL-51 lens, while the ED80PRO has a FPL-53 lens.

Questions!


Has anyone seen through both of these, and can give an informed opinion on each?
How much difference is there between a FPL-51 and a FPL-53?
I assume LET -- referring to the lens that come with the ED80PRO -- is a brand, are they good, mediocre or bad?
How much difference is there between a dielectric and non dielectric diagonal?


That's all I can think of at the moment; brain is a bit dead from looking into all this. I will post more if I can think of any.

Thank you in advance for any help you may give me! Awaiting you replies,

Sub

P.S. Please don't tell me to get a Dobsonian. I think my brain with catch fire if I hear that one more time.

[citivolus]

I used to have an ED80 Pro, and currently have the Megrez 90, which is the next model up from the ZenithStar 80 in WO's current product offerings. I sold the ED80 when I realised that the combined cost of the scope plus the 10:1 Crayford focuser upgrade I had on order was more than the Megrez 90 was going to cost me, and I've always liked the look of the WO line.

First, on the diagonal. To be honest I don't think many people will really see a difference between a dielectric and regular diagonal. That said, I do own a GSO dielectric myself. It is only a few percent brighter than a non-dielectric from my understanding. According to http://www.cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=82 , the key difference is that the coatings on the dielectric diagonal will last longer.

Regarding FPL-51 vs FPL-53, -53 is newer and more expensive and allows for easier colour correction design, but is not automatically better, as lens design still plays into this. I think from reading up on the math, in an 80mm refractor they are not going to have much detectable difference, unlike they would in a 110mm or larger. However, if you are planning IR work, FPL-53 would be to your advantage as it allows correction to continue out farther from the optimised wavelength.

Having had an ED80 Pro and my current WO Megrez 90, I can say that while the ED80 was not poorly made, the WO build quality and 10:1 Crayford focuser do give a significant advantage to the WO. The 10:1 microfocuser is something you don't get on the ED80 unless you buy an upgrade, and it is very nice to have.

The ZenithStar 80 is also a faster scope than the ED80, at f/6.8 vs f/7.5, so while it will provide slightly less focal length it will be somewhat faster photographically and also have a wider field of view.

Regards,
Eric

[Rodstar]

I won't say the "d" word, but I will say that if you are hoping to do much DSO observing, you will be very limited in what you can observe visually with an 80mm aperture. I have an ED80, and whilst it works a treat for large open clusters and wide double stars, it is not much chop for seeing much else. I would expect you will get frustrated very quickly if you are hoping to see any detail in nebulae or galactic targets.

Having said that, either scope would be great for imaging.

[MikeyB]

I'd second Rod's comments. The WO ZenithStar II is a fine scope, optically, mechanically and cosmetically, but I soon sold mine because if as you say, Sub: "I will mainly be using the scope for planetary viewing with some DSO", then a short focal length (545mm for the ZS80 and 600mm for the ED80PRO), 80mm refractor just doesn't do the business. The relatively small objective cannot deliver enough light for the necessary visual magnification, so you can expect crisp and contrasty but very tiny views of Saturn and Jupiter - other visible planets will only be dots.

There's more info on the new SkyWatcher LET series eyepieces at the manufacturer's website here: SkyWatcher LET eyepieces (http://www.skywatchertelescope.net/swtinc/product.php?id=89&class1=5&class2=502). The 20mm eye relief sounds good, but the field of view (45 or 50 degrees), is pretty narrow.

[wavelandscott]

I'll third the comments...ED80 works great on the moon, and with solar filter the sun...planets are nice but "smallish" however, except for the really big ones, DSO are a bit out of reach with this small aperture for visual work.

For astrophotography and the right other gear it should be fine.

[ausastronomer]

I will 4th those comments above.

At the end of the day an 80mm telescope is realistically unsuited to visual astronomy, particularly DSO observation. No matter what it's quality, an 80mm telescope is still just an 80mm telescope. In other words, "a very small telescope", which you can't see very much with.

My advice would be to forget about astrophotography at this time and learn the sky, how to find targets and enjoy the visual spectacle.

In this regard you could get an 8" or 10" Meade Lightbridge with Argo Navis fitted, for less money than you were originally planning to spend on "a toy telescope" and see 500 times more with it and still be just as portable and transportable.

If you want to learn something about astronomy, buy a Meade Lightbridge. If you want to take "pretty pictures" yet know nothing about astronomy and see very little visually, buy an 80mm refractor. Astrophotography has progressed to the stage now with the available hardware and computer software that anyone with the appropriate computer skills and a telescope, can take "pretty pictures that look good", despite the fact they may not know very much about astronomy. Then you move to the next level of "serious" astrophotographers taking long exposure deep images, that actually make a contribution to science.

Cheers,
John B

[Starkler]

Ok i wont say it, but I think its a common mistake for a newby to expect one scope to be good at all things. A medium dob will absolutely crap all over a small refractor for dso and planetary viewing, but not much chop for astrophotography.

My advice is sus out your priorities and possibly aim to get both eventually.
Before discarding the dob, have you ever actually viewed through one and SEEN the difference between that and a small refractor?




Agree 100% with this. I bought an ed80 for a 2nd scope some time and sold it because of my dissapointment in how little i could see with it. For AP its great, but as a visual instrument severely lacking in comparison to larger apertures for a sole scope.

[Zuts]

Hi,

Not everyone is into visual. I have a Nexstar 11 and basically never use it because of Sydney LP. I also have a TV85, I rarely look through that either.

Both scopes will give fine visual under dark skies and the TV 85 is a cracker at widefield and also gives good planetary views at high magnification.

Anyway, maybe all he wants to do is Astrophotography and if this is the case then an ED80, HEQ5 and maybe a 66mm scope for guiding would be fine. He wont see much, except under dark skies but would still be able to take some great photo's.

Paul

[Kokatha man]

Before anyone gets the totally wrong impression of my post, I'll 5th (or should that be 6th, or actually now 8th!) those comments below - but somebody had to say it; and with my "reputation" I thought "hey! - that's me!"

This is gunna get me some real bad press (what's new?) but I'd suggest a rider to John B's comment re: "anyone.......can take pretty pictures that look good," despite the fact they may not know much about astronomy..........."

Here goes my rider (and some peoples' last vestige of goodwill towards me) " .....as well as virtually no understanding whatsoever of colour theory nor composition!"

I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, please forgive me etcetera, etcetera, Darryl.

[SubElement]

Well, there seems to be a resounding similarity with everyone's opinions. I then put forward to you, what you would recommend. I have a price limit of up to $2000 and that has to come with everything I need to start using the scope, preferably with GoTo or similar.

I can't stress anymore how much I do not wish to have a Dobsonian, I need my scope to be portable, and that type of telescope is not practical for my current living situation.

Thank you for all your opinions thus far, and I await your further replies,

Sub

[Terry B]

I would have thought an 8" or 10" lightbridge is reasonably portable and give good views of both planets and deepsky.
Resolution is proportional to the diameter of the scope (and seeing etc). Little scopes don't have the ability to be magnified too much and very short focal length eyepieces are a bit of a pain to use.
I own an EQ6 and admittedly it is heavier than the Heq5 but "portable" is not how I would describe it. I certainly can't move it with the scope still attached or the counterweights.
I started with a vixen GP mount and a VC200L. This could be picked up and moved in it's entirety but the mount was overloaded for photography.
I still think the lightbridge would give you more bang for your buck.

[Rodstar]

Sub,

When you say you want your scope to be portable, and that a dob is not practical to your current living situation, what do you mean?

A dob in the 8-10 inch range is very portable in a sedan, is easy to carry, and sets up easily either at home or at an alternative observing location. Its size, when in storage, is really no larger than an EQ set-up.

I had a 10 inch SCT before I got my current set up. That is also quite easy to set up, but is heavier to manage than a 10" dob. An SCT is far easier to use for imaging than a dob.

[Kokatha man]

Hi again sub - I'm really not interested in pushing you one way or the other; but I've got to say that I think you're labouring under some misconceptions re portability.

I have a medium size achro refractor (150mm) on a HEQ5 Pro, it is portable from my perspective: but that is because I have gone to a great deal of effort to make, as well as purchase/modify, appropriate cases.

Having said that, anything on an HEQ5 Pro isn't a snap to carry around, and polar aligning to enable reasonable GoTo isn't just "plonk and view."

I love my "Long Tom" and mount - he's an integral (to me essential) component of my collection: but for portability, if I'd made a case for the dob that matched the refinements of Long Tom's carry case, my 10" dob would be just as portable. (I'm working on that!)

Cheers, Darryl.

[dannat]

Sub element - having read the threads I think some are a little bit negative, I have not has a skywatcher but have been happy with my WO 66, the build quality is very good and it will lastme forever ( as a guidescope when I upgrade). I think either the WO or skywatcher would be fine - admittedly you won't be able to chase DSO's, and you will need to barlow your oculars to get planetary views(I don't recommend going below about 7mm on an ocular{unless its expensive} - so barlow a 7-8-9 mm ocular giving 100-150X.
You could look at cassegrain type - while not the best for imaging (due to slow optics - long focal length) it does give a bit of a compromise.
Andrews have a 6" cassegrain on heq5 for 1799, throw in a focal reducer to assist your imaging and it is both portable(though no scope is really portable), will let you do some imaging & also give some viewing of planets and dso's.
In saying this though I had a 4" mak-cass which I didn't like - and could not care about the extra increase in aperture and just kept my 66mm scope.

I think what some of the other guys have been saying is that imaging is difficult, and you may not get good results if you just buy some equipment & try and image. I think it takes most atleast a couple of years to really understand what they are doing - and learning the sky is part of it.

I am probably going to buy a 6" or 8" Dob - not really for myself but for friends/colleagues who are really only interested in the planets. Once i get it though, I will probably start chasing dso's in my spare time.
Good luck with your purchase - if you make the wrong decision just list the items here in the classifieds and move on.

[Zuts]

Hi,

Any scope is portable. I had a 12 inch DOB and it fitted in the back of my excel. My Nexstar 11 fits easily on the back seat. Neither of these were easily portable and it was always a worry lurching around with the C11.

I also have an EQ6, the head and the tripod can be carried seperately so compared to the Nexstar it's far less awkward. When I look at the HEQ5 it looks like a baby in comparison and should be easy to move.

Setting up an EQ mount for visual is straightforward when you become accustomed and should not take more than 15 minutes. If you really want to image and dont want a DOB then dont get one. It is possible to image with a DOB but the vast majority of people stick with an EQ mount.

Remember though if you get serious about imaging you will come to hate star trails and will need to get a guide scope and second camera. So the HEQ5 will need to handle 2 scopes, rings and 2 cameras. This is certainly possible as long as you stick with a 80mm scope for imaging and maybe a 70mm achro for guiding.

As far as viewing is concerned you can see stuff. You just have to be realistic about what you can see, especially under light polluted skies. Many many people keep an 80 mm apo for a grab and go scope and get a lot of pleasure out of it, google for reviews of a Televue 85, so it is certainly enough for some, just be realistic regards the aperture.

Paul

[g__day]

I too will point out you ask for advice when you have some competing goals.

You want planetary and DSO - different scopes perform differently in their price brands.

You want goto and later will think of astrophotography. You want an apo, you want under $2K.

I think you won't satisfy all those desires so you should clearly prioritise and buy related to your over-riding priority. A visit to a star party might be an idea as you could look through different size apo's, MAKs, SCTs and DOB - to see what targets you prefer looking at and therefore what scope suits you best.

The most impressive sight I have ever seen in the skies was through a large dob 24" with argo navis for pointing under dark skies in a dome - it was really wow. I won't spend that much.

If entering astrophotography is your aim - then your set up is fine. But if you really want to see DSO's - well deep sky object oftem means dark sky object - small, faint, fuzzy - needing alot of light reach so a light bucket to capture. You can't escape the need for dark skies and aperature to get the best results.

Had you just said DSO - forget everything else - folks would point you to a dob. You want pointing - well a dob with argo narvis making it push to, want tracking as well - add servo cat and it starts getting expensive.

You say your friend is into it too - why don't you blow $ on the scope and let him get the mount or vice versa. Or tell him to go the high end apo and you go the large, simple dob or again vice versa.

One scope and mount won't do your two diametrically opposed goals well - you can't simultaneously head North and South!

Either choose light reach or chose crisp, excellent views of bright targets - and if possible get your friend to buy gear to cover the other quadrant is my thoughts. Hope that helps!

Matt

PS

Alternatively strech your budget to $2,400 and get a fully options 8" scope second hand - close to half price! http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=30071

[SubElement]

Thanks to everyone for their opinions and thoughts, they are greatly appreciated. I will take everything you have all said into consideration, even the volley of Dobsonian recommendations!

Thanks again,

Sub