Equipment prices in Australia

[Louwai]

I'm sure this topic has been done to death, but I just wanted to add my bit.

So why is Astro gear SOOOO expensive in AU????
As an excersize I priced a Kendrick Dew Heater package. These prices were taken from a US on-line shop who I have dealt with for other items & they will sell to AU no problems.

1 x Premier Ctrl package (which includes extras)
1 x Controler holder for Tripod
1 x 2" EP heater
2 x 3" heaters
1 x 8" heater

I can purchase all of the above RETAIL from the US + Shipping Delivered to my house in Melbourne for AU$799.00 (using $0.80 as the exchange rate)
................................... ................................... ...............
I got the AU price from a well known on-line shop.
I was not able to price the exact same quantity of components in AU as they do not advertise all of them. BUT From AU;

1 x Premier Ctrl package (including extras)
1 x 2" EP heater
1 x 8" OTA heater
The above added up to AU$907.00 and this price DID NOT include delivery to my home in Melbourne.
AU$107 MORE without postage for 3 LESS items.
Go figure!!!!!!!!

You may note that in the US price I have not included 5% import duty or 10% GST. That's because any purchase from overseas which is less than AU$1000 does not attract these charges.
If over AU$1000 you will be required to pay these + AU$100 for Customs Clearance.

The Controler is advertised in AU at a retail price of AU$659. US advertise the exact same item RETAIL for AU$373 ($0.80 exchange rate)
That's RETAIL. So US are still making a profit on that. Granted AU's price includes GST, but that makes the actual price AU$600. Still AU$226 above the US retail price.
If AU buy in bulk then they pay 5% Duty on the commodity cost from the manufacturer. Not a lot in that. They will also pay around AU$110 or so for the Customs clearance, but that cost is for the entire shipement NOT each item. Regardless of whether your shipment is the size of a shoe box or a 40' container. If the commodity cost is over AU$1000 you will pay AU$110 for a clearance.
Shipping cost depends on volume. I'm pretty sure the AU seller would not buy by the container load, so I thinks it's safe to say LCL charges apply.
From the US, LCL (cost per cubic metre) charges are very roughly about AU$700 / M3.
How many dew systems can you fit into 1 x M3. I'd say quite a few, so the shipping cost would not be very much on a per item basis. Being conservative, maybe AU$15 per Dew system.

The current US retail price for the Premier Ctrl is US$299 So I would guess that they are probaly buying it from Kendrick for around US$200 give or take a bit. Using the $0.80 exchange, that's AU$250 purchase from Kendrick.
So for the Premier ctroler in AU;
Commodity purchase from Kendrick AU$250 (assumed)
Shipping AU$10 (assuming 70 units per cubic metre which I think is VERY conservative)
Import duty @ 5% of $250 = $12.50
=
$250 + $10 + $12.50= AU$272.5
+ GST @ 10%
= AU$299.75

This is obviously not exact as I am not privey to the AU sellers actual costs.
But I'll bet my lefty that it's pretty damn close.
I own & operate an import business so I am very familiar with importing costs listed above.

Even making the dealer cost of the controler AU$350 to allow for any wrong assumptions, that is still AU$309 profit for 1 individual item.
:shrug:

[gbeal]

I agree, and in NZ, apart from the odd item here and there not much is available anyway. I import nearly everything I use astro wise.
I have noticed in the last month or so that USPS shipping has increased, and in some case it seems the "surface shipping" option has disappeared.
A real rough gut feeling guess on your package would be about US$25 - $30 for USPS air, 4 - 10 days.

[Louwai]

Gary, I was actually quoted US$82 for USPS which is included in the AU$799 I mentioned.
So from your assumption the total could be even less.

Bryan

[WAR.Genius]

Hey
can I comment on this as well

I have the same problem..
I'm just about to buy the Celestron C6-SGT 6"
in Australia it costs me $2199 AUD from a major dealer.
If I order it from the US it is $1537 AUD with shipping.

I'm all about supporting Australian companies but not making $700 donations of money.

Is ordering from the US fine?
are there any stories not to?

Mark Mathew

[Louwai]

Mark, You'll probably find that no US dealer will sell you a Celestron scope. They are bound by agreements with Celestron not to sell outside of the US.

BUT, there are ways around that.
If you do choose to take a "side path" you'll find that you will forego your warranty.

I'm looking into getting a new CGE1400. Which, buying from the US (via a legal side path), paying all the legitimate costs & charges I'll land it in Melbourne for aprox AU$3000 less than buying it retail here.

Bryan

[RB]

Just make sure you check out how much Australian Customs will charge you once the item enters Australia.
If the value is less than $1000 there's no charge but anything after that you'll be charged a fee.

[Stephen65]

There are pricing differentials on some products which are impossible to explain simply by reference to foreign exchange rates, GST, shipping, import costs etc.

A large culprit to me seems to be situations where a US manufacturer appoints a sole distributor here, forbids their US dealers from selling to Australians and then sets Australian prices with a large markup over US prices assuming we have no choice but to pay them.

It's got to the stage with me where I simply refuse to buy products that have had their prices significantly inflated over comparable prices in the US. I either choose a competing product that is reasonably priced here or I buy directly from US dealers.

[Louwai]

Yes that's right.
If the total invoice value is over AU$1000 you'll be charged
1) Import Duty of 5% of the invoice value
+
2) Between $100 & $130 for a customs clearance
+
3) GST on the entire amount (Invoice value + Import Duty + Customs Clearance + shipping cost)

[Louwai]

I think over the years australians have become used to higher prices. I'll give you another example.
As an importer I supply replacement water filter cartridges to a retailer in Brisbane. This water filter cartridge is sold retail by my client for $48ea. The exact same cartridge is sold in Bunnings for $29.95
I sell this cartridge to the guy in Bris at 100% profit for AU$3.15ea. YES THAT"S RIGHT !!!!!

I sell the same cartridge on Ebay for $7ea. many people will not buy from me at the cheap price because they believe it's cheap Chinese rubbish & they go & buy the EXACT same cartridge from Bunnings for $30. They assume that it's expensive so it must be good.

[Jackson42South]

I recently purchased a Mount from the US, and was advised by the seller that USPS shipping has recently increased, and that surface shipping was not available.

I believe that surface shipping is still available but only if you lodge the goods at a post office, but most stores in the US now use the USPS Print and pay for shipping labels online service (the goods are then collected from the store). Surface shipping is not available via USPS online.:shrug:

[Louwai]

I recently bought a FeatherTouch focuser direct from them. They were FANTASTIC to deal with. Couldn't be more helpful. All items arrived in Melb within 4 working days after purchase.
HIGHLY RECOMENDED.

Don't forget Gary in NZ either........:)

[g__day]

If I buy The Sky6 Professional Edition from Astro Optical, it will cost me $475.00, if I buy it from Optcorp its USD $189.95 plus postage say $50 - so USD 240 / 0.88 is $272 - so a $200 mark up seems outrageous!

http://www.optcorp.com/product.aspx?pid=105-243-244-246-3597

[RB]

I know this topic has been discussed so many times that it's not even worth replying to anymore.

But if you find a cheaper price from overseas, go for it !
We live in a "free" country and are allowed to vote with our money.

Better still, why don't you set up a physical shopfront in Crows Nest or in Glebe in the CBD supplying us with astro goodies from overseas so we can all take advantage of your lower prices.
Of coarse you would give us all mates rates and handle any returns and repairs with problem goods or with problem customers.

It's all to easy to shop online and find the cheapest price on the planet, add the shipping cost, convert to the Aussie dollar and Bob's your Auntie.

But it's Bintel we all run to for advice, it's Astro Optical we can walk into and see that scope in real life, then hop on the forums and bash the Aussie suppliers that have helped us progress in our wonderful hobby from back in the days when we didn't know which end of the scope to put the EP into.

Of coarse they are there to make a profit !
They are not the original manufacturer, hardly anything is made in Australia anymore !
There will always be a middle man and a markup.

So if you are willing to change things then set up shop and give them a run for their money.

[Alchemy]

I have to agree with rocket boy.
Me i like to see and touch the items, ill give you an example, yesterday i went and purchased a illuminated reticle finderscope had alook through it and found a fault, said to the store manager have a look, and he swapped it over. You are not going to get that sort of service from OS. So i paid a little more but i went home satisfied and not having the frustration of a 3-6 week wait and maybee the same again.

[cydonia]

Couldn't have said it better my self Rocket boy.
It's Ozi distributers and dealers that keep Australian Astro magazines turning up to our doors, they also support local star parties as well as sites like this so users can vendor bash. Just look at the adverts on the top right side of this page.

Louwai, you just confessed to us that you mark up the stuff you sell by 100%...Some people would consider that outragous.

I would hate to try and have to put food on my families table by selling Astro gear in this country!

If you find an online price cheaper, then go for it. But don't be a hypocrite and run to Bintel, Astro Optical etc when it doesn'twork properly.

[merlin8r]

Thanks, Rocketboy!

[wavelandscott]

As usual, this topic (and similar ones) can bring out lots of comment...

Like everyone else, I want to get as much "gear for my money" as possible, but we must never loose sight of the impact of our buying gear overseas...While we may save a few bucks as individuals, the run on impact is that it can put retailers out of business and people out of work...

The costs and risks associated with running a retail business are much trickier than we might think...after paying for salaries/wages (a defined minimum), mandatory super, insurance, store space and of course inventory (along with a whole host of other expenses), the "profit" line can get pretty thin...

Additionally the fluctuation of the AUD$ can have a dramatic impact...for instance, the current exchange rate AUD$ to USD$ is now .7961...that is a 10% slide in just a few days...What a drag to be on the wrong side of that move with a container load of telescopes! (As a side note, my "real life" company is just selling the last of some inventory acquired when the exhange rate was .48!!!! (and no we did not have a currency hedge set)...but that is another painful story:sadeyes:)

I like to have a local shop/person that I can talk with for advice and/or get after sales service from...if that means I need to pay extra for it so be it.

Lastly, I am certain that different manufactures will sell to different parts of the world at different price levels...don't ever assume that the price our retailers locally are paying for goods is anywhere near that of their US counterparts.

It would not be that unusual for a good bound for Australia to pass though an extra layer or two of "distribution" before it reaches our fair shores. A US manufacture might sell direct to a US retailer...For Australia bound goods it probably goes from the US to a "country distributor" who then takes a cut before selling to retail here...I know of some situations (not necessarily Astro Gear) were the sale goes Manufacture-Overseas Global Regional Distributor-Country Distributor-Regional Australian Distributor-Retailer...each step of the way people trying to take a cut of the profits...

We all have the freedom and the right to vote with our dollars...but before jumping on the bandwagon to accuse local retailers of being profiteers give some thought to all of the things that can impact price...

Clear Skies All!

[g__day]

Maybe it's just me - but I've spent over $15,000 on Astro gear so far and had strangely very mixed dealings with all stores in Sydney.

Examples:

Everyone here - absolutely brilliant on all sold gear - about $5K so far
Overseas suppliers - e.g. Shoestring Astronomy, Specialist software - about $800
Camera - Canon - probably about $3,000

Astro Optical - about $2K

+ve - first 6" newtonian I every bought, plus many eyepieces - great
+ve - got me the SS2k serial cable I wanted instantly - no sweat!
+ve - kept a credit for me for years no issue, Warren is a top bloke!
-ve - no substantive help on how to mate a C9.25 to a Atlux, really limited suggestions
-ve - no help as the Australian Sky6 distributor confirming whether it would work fully with the SS2k

Synsopysis - great on many things, lousy on others

BinTel - about $1.5K

+ve - got many eye pieces, diagonals, DSI's, motor focusers - excellent quality and price
-ve - on mounting gear, sheer labour of repeatedly telling them in wiriting what I want with as much precision and pictures as I can over and over and at times repeating it all 2-3 times before all of the guys there start listening. I know I can be trying, I know they think best price and cheapest options, but sometimes I want high end and don't want to go low end. Once or twice I have been in the store agruing and pleading with the owner to sell me something he's holding in his hands! I've literally said "I have money in my hand and I want to give it to you for what you hold in your hand" - three times before he would reluctantly serve me. I'm sure he had my best interest (in a way I can't understand) in his heart, but it bugged the heck out of me - it was surreal really! And I like the guys there!

Synopysis - Great products, knowledge, and decent prices - but sometimes you can ask questions of the older guys that make you feel like they are trying to serve a Martian

Lee Andrews - About $1.5K, eyepieces, bino's, CG5 Mount, finderscopes, dovetails, binoviewers

+ve - best prices for quality gear - hands down, great warranty service
-ve - when order go astray - wait 6 months with no shows and inadequate explanations as to where the ball was dropped

MyAstroshop - About $3.5K - CF9.25 OTA and many Vixen LVW eyepieces

+ve - only positives from Steve, great guy, great prices, great help
-ve - none

ATScope - Never managed to get anything there - but not from want of trying!

+ve - none so far, but Peter obivously knows his stuff
-ve - never seems to return my multiple calls or e-mails, strange...

Astronomy Online - About $2K, 5" MAK, low end mounts, eyepieces

+ve - great gear, very friendly and knowledgeable
-ve - prices are too high compared to eveyone else on commodity gear

* * *

So rather than blindy defend who we've got, know that like us we all have our strengths and weakenesses. Call out that sometimes they are more than 1/2 to double the retail import price plus freight charges and taxes and wonder why. I certainly don't think we are being screwed, nor is it a simple argument, but maybe they get the shaft in how international providers sell to them vs direct.

Why couldn't Warren buy Sky6 six retail for me and split the difference vs buy at a wholesaler at twice the retail price? It's beyond me, its not Warren - it's his distributor that's shafting him.

[RB]

Maybe it is just me after all.
I've tried to think back on a time when I've had a negative experience with any of the Aussie supplier I've dealt with over the years and I've dealt with Astro Optical, Bintel, AEC, Wildcard Innovations, ATS, York Optical so I'm not blindly defending them.
I can safely say I have met most of them personally !
Not once have I had a bad experience, not once have I said I wish I bought from OS instead.

I have on the other hand bought from OS items that I can't get here.
Mostly happy with the service although I've had to cancel my credit cards three times due to fraudulent transactions directly after the same supplier charged my CC.
That has never happened locally or with any other OS supplier.
Yes dealing over the net is perilous and I'm not blaming the supplier per sé but I can't be sure who is on the other end unless I deal over the phone.
Trying to prove to the bank that I didn't make those fraudulent transactions and waiting 12 weeks was bad enough but not knowing if I was to get my $750 back each time was worse!
I've worried about whether the items were going to be sent in good shape or whether the correct items would be sent at all.
I've had to fight with customs to release my goods on time, I've been given the runaround with orders placed and confirmation of the order received but then orders being lost and had to wait for an internal investigation.
Trying to get advice on said items after the sale was not always the easiest thing to do.

So yes I am reluctant to buy from OS, not only for the obvious reasons as stated ie. walk into a shop and see the merchandise, ask advice, easy exchange/return procedure etc etc, but because I've also had bad experiences from buying OS that I did not expect.

I don't like paying more than I have to but have also been in business and am in business myself and know from direct experience what it's like to be a small operator having to compete with the giants of the industry worldwide.
And in today's world, price is everything but something has to give in return for "cheaper" goods and usually it's advice/service and after sales care.

Like I said we have a choice and no one is forcing us to buy locally. ;)

[Louwai]

Yes that particular item I mark up 100% because it is a very low value item & even at 100% I am still providing it at far far less than others. I COULD put 700% on it & still be cheaper than others in the retail market, but I don't.

I also sell items delivered for AU$180. Those items only have 15% on them. Other higher value items even less at 10%. And I still provide the after-sales service & warranty replacements & general knowledge.



I didn't name any specific business in my original post. Neither AU or US. I was simply stating what I thought was an issue.
Just as those who have come back in defence of the local dealers have stated their position.
Some have stated the possible pitfalls of dealing internationally in defence of the local dealers. Very good & valid points. Some people can not justify spending money without the backup & service. If that's what suits them then they are required to pay the extra cost of that.

I used the Kendrick Premier Controler & heaters as an example.
If it was only $100 more expensive I would buy it in AU to save all the hassle, but when a complete package would have a cost difference of around $300 or more I can not justify the extra cost.
A CGE1400 delivered to Melbourne is $3000 cheaper when buying from the US. Again, if it was $1000 dearer to buy here, fair enough. But not $3k.

I know there is only 1 Celestron wholesaler in AU, & it's quite possible that he is the one pushing scope prices up & not the retailer.

Either way, this thread certainly got the discussion going.....:)

[astroAJ]

Yep
I do say the asto equipment is expensive
But you can’t always be to sure what you buy online
It doesn’t stop me from supporting local astro shops
;)

[g__day]

Good points Andrew,

I've meet all of them too. I've bought lots from them, the majority of my experiences are great. I know how fully I'm covered by the Banking payments act. I know the moment I say I repudiate that credit card transaction in writing because it's not mine, it's not what I ordered or the goods are not in good order by law its the Bank's problem. They may rant and rave, and usually don't, but its there problem - its written into the banking act and payments law for Australia.

I agree that one should do all their research before they buy. But the very fact we can get better retail prices than a wholesaler can get volume prices strikes me as poor.

[billche]

I don't know what to add into this thread, but...

Louwai,
I totally agreed with what you'd said and that's why I bought almost everything OS.

Bill

[Stephen65]

I strongly suspect that the main cause of some of the inexplicable price markups are not the local retailers, but as I said, the pricing structure where a sole local distributor is appointed by the manufacturer, granted a monopoly over supply and then RRP's are set by the manufacturer or distributor that are considerably in excess of US prices.

I know when priced a Celestron scope here that retailers here were having to work on a Celestron/distributor set RRP that wasmore than 50% higher than the RRP of the exact same scope in the USA. And when you are looking at C11s and C14s that's thousands of dollars difference.

Net result was I didn't buy a Celestron scope, I bought a WO scope from Andrews Comm and most recently a Tak scope from AEC for prices that were comparable to US prices (as they should be since the product is sourced in a third country) once you took into account things like GST etc. In fact at 78 cents in the dollar conversion rate the Tak is priced slightly less than it is in the USA.

Buying a scope or mount locally even if its a bit more expensive does give you the benefit of local warranty support and repairs which can be invaluable and worth paying a bit of a premium to get. But if its something like an eyepiece or a filter, that would have to be shipped overseas back to the manufacturer for warranty work even if I bought locally and isn't a hassle to ship, then I certainly do look at US dealers and buy from them if the price difference is substantial. I'd like to patronise local if possible but sometimes the price difference is so large that I buy overseas.

That applies doubly to something like computer software where all you are getting is code on a DVD and a manual, there is no conceivable reason it should be double the price here and no reason why you wouldn't buy it from overseas for half the price.

[sparky]

Well correct if I'm wrong here but the Skywatcher stuff is sold here at very competitive retail prices compared to the states. Now Celestron I think is owned by Synta/Skwatcher yet the Celestron range seems to have a much higher mark up when compared to the USA. Whats going on? I wanted to buy an CGE mount last year but was er dissapointed by the relatively high price. I bought the EQ6 instead. I notice this has dropped over AU$400 in price (great for the consumer) yet the price of the CGE mount hasn't moved a cent. I fully support the idea of buying local but at what cost?

[merlin8r]

Ok, as has been said, when you buy local, you get the warranty. Here's the thing: In Australia, all new products sold are required to have a warranty, from a toaster to a Toyota. In the Australian telescope market, it is the retailer who wears this. All warranty repairs are conducted by trained staff in their own facilities.
When you buy in the US (this is US customers), if your telescope goes defective, the retailer won't have a bar of it. You have to send the telescope back to the manufacturer. At your cost. The manufacturer is responsible for warranty repair costs.
That is the number 1 reason why prices are higher here.

We service what we sell.
We are not the "sole" Australian dealer of TheSky6, and the advice given to you at the time was to ask Software Bisque, the producers of TheSky6. They are in a much better position to answer your questions.

[space oddity]

Australia is a rather small market with the extra burden of freight and GST. It is only to be expected that prices will be higher here, although sometimes they seem to be a bit over the top. I have bought a number of things mail order from the states, so far so good, but nothing requiring a warranty. It is worth spending the extra to obtain that warranty. Besides, our local dealers DO provide sponsorship and support for our astro societies and star parties:thumbsup:.,so they do deserve some sales. When ordering gear around the $1000 mark, have the packages opened, they can then be deemed "used" merchandise and lower the value by 20%.

[g__day]

Hey merlin8r,

Looking at Software Bisque overseas site for local dealers you guys were the only one mentionedto me by Dan. Asking everyone in Sydney - even BinTel pointed me to you! Hate to tell you but I'm on Daniel Bisque's own forums for the last 6 months; my question was 60% my not knowing and 40% a test if you guys knew about the stuff you were selling. Read on to see how you scored.

Given you sell Vixen mounts for years and you sell the Sky6 makes me think of you as a value adding re-seller. Figuring I might not be the only folk wanting to know I pondered you might want to simply e-mail my specific questions on and enlighten them all. So what actually happened?

Well the timeline went like this e-mail to Warren

I asked 4 specific questions on dovetails, serial cables and weights for the Atlux and the drivers needed for Sky 6.

Two days later Warren answers one of my 4 specific questions - saying we have the serial cable I need, but only in a 2 metre length when I later call to check that as it wasn't specified in his e-mail. Now here's where it gets strange. Rather than answer the three other important questions he suggests the new Atlux's aren't out yet - why not buy a Sphinx SXD (which when I come to the store he then tells me aren't released for sale into Australia yet - weird diversion and strange advice.

So I e-mail my other three questions again - saying look I've got the Atlux - I need the other three items can you help?

His e-mail comes back - helpful on the vixen dovetails, no help or suggestion on a side saddle - like try a Losmandy or ADM or Robyn Casady - might have been nice to hear. Had he have said there expensive but want me to source it all for you and add say $100 for my efforts I'd said fine. Shame no additional customer service was added. His response to the weights was just weird "Atlux counter weights are also a special order item, they came in 3.5kg & 7kg sizes (they are not listed in Vixen's current price list) A 25% deposit with your order is requested for special order items." Why doesn't the retailer know the cost of his wares? Why can't he find out before he tells me to leave a 25% deposit? How do I leave a 25% deposit if he himself doesn't know the cost? See how the ball is getting dropped here? Why didn't you simply mail Vixen and ask the prices like I asked before e-mailing me back with non-information?

But the story goes on...

So I come into the shop to get the cable - staff are great. I ask about tube rings - get shown a manual and told definitively oh they never made a tube ring for the C9.25 only the 8" and 14". Well I accepted that at their word - until last night when cruising Vixen Japan sites I see a white 235mm OTA marked Celestron on an Atlux in a White tube ring.


Now I don't mind hearing we don't know, or its out of production, but it was never made is a definitive answer and its not the truth - I don't like that. Secondly I go to pay with a credit I have now for 5 years. I trusted Warren with my money. I have a receipt in his hand writing, on your letter head, with my customer numbers for your computer records. After a while the guys serving me comes out looking a bit surprised and says "Oh I guess your story checks out". When I was younger if someone had of checked their own book keeping and come up to me and said "Oh I guess you're not a liar after all" they might not have liked my immediate reaction - but let's let that one pass, not everyone understands good customer service.

The bottom line is you guys tried - but not very hard - like writing an e-mail to your distributor, or answering my questions on the first 3 times they were asked, or going the extra mile to say great question - we don't know how about we find out.

Instead I got fobbed off. We dunno - ask Software Bisque - why should we bother was the way I felt I was being treated.

If any of the staff had of said Matt - it'll all up cost your $1,500 for the mounting, the Sky 6, the weights are you happy for us to put it all together and check its the best way forward - you'd have got my business. Dumping it all back on me after 3 e-mails and 3 phone calls and a store visit and giving me wrong information and no value add is why you ended up getting $50 of my wallet.

[Stephen65]

The Trade Practices Act imposes certain limited warranty rights, but there are similar consumer protection provisions in the USA and many other countries.

It's not correct that the retailer actually carries out all warranty repairs in Australia. It depends on what is wrong and how it is to be fixed. Some retailers are capable of simple repairs (eg replace circuit board) but in many cases they have to send the product back to the manufacturer as the manufacturer either is the only party capable of repair or has to review the defective product to authorise a replacement.

Many Australian retailers are small one or two man operations incapable of anything beyond the simplest repairs and have to send almost everything back.

Depends on the type and cost of the repair and the retailer. I've read enough consumer stories on CN to know that sometimes the retailer looks after it and often the manufacturer pays for the shipping if it has to be sent back. Again it depends on what the product is and the nature of the repair.

I know in my own dealings with OPT that when I asked them about warranty coverage on a TV eyepiece I was thinking of buying from them that they told me they would handle it for me.

Even if there is some extra warranty cost that Australian retailers must bear that US retailers don't what I don't get is why some manufacturers are able to sell their product here at prices that are reasonably close to US prices yet others seem to charge very large price loadings.

[iceman]

I'd agree with this part most of all!

What would you all do at star parties without the lucky door prize raffles?

Local vendors do a great job supporting our hobby in this country.

[gbeal]

Mike, maybe. I scooted to your fair town 12 months ago, and walked into Bintel Sydney. Nice folk, and we chewed the fat for a while. I was keen to explore the possibilty of having them send me a Lightbridge scope, and wrote to them on my return. 12 months almost, and no reply. OK, I can live with rejection, and have moved on.
The silly thing though is that this week I have the opportunity to get a mirror bought back to NZ by a friend visiting Melbourne. So I search and find again on the Bintel site that they have what I want. I write to the Melbourne shop and enquire. Nope, they don't stock it, but Sydney do or should, write to them. This reply was quick, and informative. So I write to the Sydney shop, 2 days ago, and still nothing.
Given the lack of attention to e mail, I wonder sometimes why they have an internet presence at all.
In my case I have simply aborted, and will buy elsewhere, like most will when faced with this sort of service. So in a competitive cut throat market, you would assume they would want my money, apparently not.

[Louwai]

As disapointing as it is, I have had similar experiences as Gary with Bintel.
I have never purchased from Bintel mainly due to the phone manor I received when calling to enquire about a specific product.
3 times over the last 5 mths I have called the Melb store to enquire about products availability & price.
Maybe the store was absolutely packed & they were run off their feet, I don't know as I was on the ph. But whoever it was that answered couldn't get rid of me quick enough.
I received the shortest most abrupt answers to my few questions & that has pretty much put me off them for good.

I'm not far from the Melb shop, & in many cases I'd pay the higher prices for the convenience. But to date I haven't due to the above.

Customer service goes a long way in my book. I try very hard to make my customers' buying experience a good one, regardless of the amount they spend.
Then they come back, & usually bring their friends.


I have purchased items from Steve @ My Astro Shop. Very quick & polite service. When an item had an issue, it was replaced promptly.
I wouldn't hesitate to recomend him.

I've purchased from York Optical in Brisbane (when I lived there).
Very knowledgable staff. Although in my case they were screwed over by the Celestron distributor in Brisbane.
When I bought my C8 I intended to buy it from York in Bris. I was in the shop, they called the distributor at Capalaba & he said 8 to 10 weeks away.
I called another Celestron dealer from NSW & purchased over the ph on the same day. My C8 was delivered the NEXT day from the SAME distributor in Capalaba.
On other issues the York staff in Bris have gone out of their way to accomodate me. Again I would recomend the store.

[casstony]

Something that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is that GSO gear is generally cheaper here than it is in the U.S.

I suspect the retailers don't have a lot margin to play with and that prices are dictated by their distributors.

[Geoff45]

Put in a request for an sbig ccd camera or a losmandy titan and I'll bet you get a quick reply!

[g__day]

:) Bwwwwwhhhaaaaauuuuuuu!

[BOBBY]

Hey Guys I run an business in WA and import about 80 containers a year from major UK manufactures but I can tell you we could never compete product for product with UK wholesalers. The costs involved with freight,customs and many other hidden charges makes it imposible. The other thing also to remeber is Australian wholesalers have to work on higher margins due to demand from a smaller population.
As for Australian Astro suppliers I would give Bintel (Sydney) 10 out of 10 Ive never had a problem Don and the guys run a good business

[Louwai]

In my original post I tried to account for all of those points.
I wasn't comparing the retail price here to the retail price in the US. I added all relevant import & shipping costs to the US retail price.

The only things I'm not sure of is the wholesale purchase price & the qty purchased from the wholesaler. I tried to be conservative on the qty & I assumed the wholesale purchase price was the same as the US retailers + some contingency.
I also worked on LCL which, as you would know, is much more expensive than FCL. So as a VERY general comparison the difference between the 2 prices would be the AU retailers margin which includes overhead & profit. OH shouldn't be more than 7%.

I agree with your comment regarding the smaller population. Some manufacturers / suppliers just flat out refuse to deal with me because I'm from Australia & in their words "The market isn't large enough"

[gbeal]

Update.
Just received an e mail from Bintel, and they are unable to help with supplying what I want. A shame, but at least I now know. Back to the drawing board.

[rumples riot]

When I recently went through the effort of buying a C1400 with CGE mount I confronted one retailer here. They dropped the price by 1500 immediately. That to my mind says a lot about how much profit is actually being made on astronomy products.

It is false economy to suggest that our market is smaller and requires higher prices. In fact from a market perspective the prices should be lower. Lower prices encourage greater market participation and more entrances into the market from the buyer. This means volume to the seller and the seller is still in a better position than before. Astronomy is more accessible to the public.

Added to the above, is that even if the price is dictated by other factors, the wholesale price should remain the same. This is because of the FTA with the US (Hahaha that is funny) and the no selling outside of the US or UK suggests that there is some sort of market collusion on prices. Surely a retailer in the US is getting products like a C1400 for around 4000 US from Celestron. They sell it to the public for 6100, fair margin and some profit to boot. Australian retailers are not paying 8000 Au for the product to sell it at 11500. They should be buying the product for around the same price wholesale and then have added costs like import, GST and freight. Clearly the figures do not add up. Besides Celestron would be trying to encourage market participation and drop the price in a market where participation is low. The local market then pays the relief to support the strategy. The same thing happens here. You don't really think a Holden cost 54000 to build do you? When it is being sold in the UK or US for a fraction of that price.

No ladies and Gentlemen we are being ripped off and retailers in this country know it. Sure we get a warrantee and good service, but I don't think that is worth the inflated cost.

[Nuri]

Absolutely agree Rumples Riot!

I recently went to Los Angeles on business and bought a "display model" CGE mount from the Woodland Hills Telescope shop and brought it back with me on the return flight. You are now allowed 64KG of personal luggage to and from the US with Qantas, so there was no shipping fee... Woodland Hills also refunded the US sales tax back to my credit card when I faxed them a document I obtained from LAX airport on the way out.

Now...I could add the price of the US return flight AND accommodation in the US and STILL be under the AU price! As far as support goes, there is plenty of support on the Internet if I have problems...

[Stephen65]

I take the "smaller market" with a grain of salt too - Sydney would be the fourth largest city in the USA if it were transplanted there and plenty of US retailers manage to survive despite being located in US cities that are much smaller.

It's not so much a question of total Australian population versus total US but rather population density versus number of retailers.

I also wonder about the legality under the US/Australia Free Trade Agreement of these exclusive dealer arrangements combined with rules that stop US dealers selling to us directly.

[Louwai]

Even though I started this thread somewhat against the AU retailers & wholesalers, I must come to their defence here.
The perception of a "Small Market" is a very real thing. Dealing in imports, I have personally been turned away from overseas manufacturers because I am from Australia. These manufacturers are looking at long term, large volume & in their eyes 20m people will just not cut it.

ALTHOUGH, I don't believe this would pertain to Celestron or Meade as they have dedicated manufacturers in Asia who supply the entire world for that specific brand. So the "Small Market" syndrome should not affect these items at all.

[gbeal]

And I'll wager that when you kicked this off, you didn't realise the can of worms you were opening either.

[Louwai]

I love a good debate Gary. It's always interesting to see peoples' comments & reactions.:thumbsup:

[gbeal]

Yep, it has been a great place to vent about service or the lack of, and prices. I had hoped it didn't get too personal, as I don't think we need this, but then again, most are happy to praise when due, so where the service or price isn't up to scratch, that needs mentioning as well. A good thread.

[merlin8r]

So long as any complaint is an accurate account of the events that took place.

[Louwai]

Absolutely agree.
And I can certainly confirm that all details in my posts in this thread are factual.
I didn't name any businesses, good or bad, with regard to the pricing.

Although I did name Bintel with regard to a bad phone manner I encountered on more than one occasion.
I think that's a fair comment.

[Melbourne Guy]

Hi first time here and this thread twigged my interest. Good discussion on retail prices in Australia but I have notice an underlying issue in regards to the way people approach businesses, be it Myers, Optus, the local fish and chip store etc

I think that making a decision about a business sole based on a couple of poor telephone conversation does not justify the means. I have had similar dealing with business who exhibited very poor phone manners. I worked through the problem and eventual got the service I was looking for even if it mean driving halfway across Melbourne to visit the business and making myself known.

What we, as humans forget that we are fallible. We are quick to past judgment on others people but do not look at our own failings. Maybe Louwai, had you taken the time and worked through the issue in a courteous manner with this business, think you called it bintel, you would find that you would have receive the service that you were looking for.

I also notice that during one of your discussion you mention that you live close to this business but as yet not setting foot on the premises, don’t you think this is a wrong. While the phone is handy, getting in your car and driving down to the store and talking to the sale people is and will be more productive.

Guy

[BOBBY]

Hey Louwai
Jesus Im only new to this site, and I applogise for mentioning a particular supplier, but the name did get bounded arourd a bit, Some of you guys must be in sales or supply, in some form or another. Its fine to knock suppliers or distibutors, but when you your happy with the service there is nothing wrong with sticking up for them.
Having also looked around on the internet and checked out prices like any of us would ,when we are spending hard earned cash, I still belive that the official Australian distributors do offer competirive prices, wether the equipment is manufactured in the USA, Japan etc. However you must agree that they are suppliers of astro equipment who are not official manufacture's distributors that are only buyers and sellers and maybe this is where major currency fluctuations occur. As to Stephen65 comments Perth Metro area has a combined population just about as large as Seattle and Washington combined and all we can buy here is Skywatcher ,and Lun comments 65kg baggage allowance is your dad the CEO of QANTAS (I rest my case)

[Nuri]

<65kg baggage allowance is your dad the CEO of QANTAS (I rest my case)>

Lun? Try again! You obviously haven't travelled to USA with Qantas recently... The baggage allowance to and from Los Angeles is 64KG per person. Its easy to confirm this with a phone call ...instead of "resting your case" based on assumptions.

[astroron]

Guy if you go back through this site you will see lots of praise for dealers in Australia, which they are probably happy to except, but I also think that when there are things that we are not happy about we should be able to mention them just as well.

[PCH]

Guys,

when I recently wanted to buy a Canon 400D, like most people I just 'googled' the name and up came all the various prices from online shops and the likes.

I hadn't understood at this stage how there could be such a price range (from $985 to $1495 for the same product !) until I did a bit of digging and came up with what most of you guys will already know. That is, that the cheaper ones are selling stock from Hong Kong etc rather than "Australian" designated stock. It is genuinely all the same product from Canon, and so I decided to take advantage of the cheaper price and save about $500.

I read all the supposed reviews from this online store, and naturally they all came up trumps. Well they would wouldn't they - they wrote them !

Anyway, the item turned up in absolute record time with emails confirming where the item was at every step virtually until the van was at my door.. Terrific service I thought.

The product was perfectly ok in every way, and I have no complaints....

Except that I did just have a couple of simple questions for the store. I've tried emailing many times, and can I get an answer from them? - not likely.

So there you go, you take a risk when buying outside the square, and you have to offset the saving against this lesser quality service. You get what you pay for I guess:P

Cheers,

[Louwai]

Guy,
1) you are implying that I was not courteous on the ph. Why? What in my posts leads you to this assumption?
2) You state that I "have not set foot on the premises". Again, where in my previous posts do you get this info. I said I have never PURCHASED from them.
3) You also imply that I should make the effort to extract good service from the business. You may have heard the saying "first impressions last".
I discounted the first impression AND the 2nd impression by approaching the business a 3rd time. All 3 times were a typical product enquiry which EVERY business receives on a daily basis.
After receiving a similar short & abrupt response to each call on well separated occasions, why would I think that going to the shop would produce a different reaction??

I am employed by a company at National Management level & I operate my own business after hrs. If, as you say, I had never set foot on the premises, why would I want to waste my time going to a shop to possibly receive the similar discourteous response.

Maybe I'm being harsh & closed minded, but that is life & that is what businesses (including my own) must deal with.
For my own business I advertise that I am available on mob ph till 8pm, 7 days a week. Because I know the frustration of NOT being able to deal with suppliers / manufacturers after hrs. I am happy to do that for my clients.

I am also happy to praise suppliers / retails where good service is received, as I have done previously in this thread.

Please don't take this as a personal attack Guy, I'm just putting across my responses to your comments directed at me.:D

[rogerg]

It's not just astro stuff - I ended up having to buy my Creative Zen W from DSE for AU$479 when if I could've bought it from the US it would've been AU$379. I simply couldn't find any avenue to buy it from the US, so had to live with the high price here. Exactly the same product.

It's a bit of a raw deal for the local dealers if people buy from the US then ask for support locally, that's wrong. I think if you buy from the US you should expect to get support from the US and not hassle the local dealers. It might be people doing that kind of thing which forces the local price higher for everyone.

[DJVege]

I believe this is the same deal with many items. A lot of stuff is cheaper in the U.S. Computers and computer parts, telecomms, etc... We're always at least 6 months behind and in some cases, up to 2 years behind. :(

[cydonia]

Nuri, if something went wrong with your Mount that you brought back from the US. Are you prepared to buy another return ticket to the US to take it back for warranty repair? If not then I rest my case. Most warranty is back to base, or the dealer you purchased it from and they send it back at their cost.

Seriously, I wander what benefit this topic has in advancing amature astronomy in australia. This topic comes up every few months and I fear the only thing it acheives is alienating distributors and dealers from this forum.
So what, someone finds a price too high and can buy it cheaper in the US, then go and buy it in the US. I don't believe it's an excuss to rubbish the local guys.
Everyone here knows how to surf the net and is more then capable in finding out for themselfs who has cheap prices and who doesn't. I think this forum would be much better if this type of discussion didn't crop up all the time. You don't see it on Cloudy nights!

[g__day]

Well I perserved with BinTel on an order for about $1,000 - sheerly because I felt they were trying to add value - and in the end they did. I spoke with Don today and I feel like we got it across the line.

Now on some purchases - particularly software - I think do all your analysis up front of the web an then go direct. In my case I probably put more effort into needs analysis and detailed spec's of what I needed - so they had to reality check this and match my needs to offered products to confirm it will all integrate.

End of the day - in 2 weeks time my rig should be pretty well sorted until I upgrade CCDs and scope control software.

Now the user has to skill up because the platform is excellent!

[casstony]

I think the level of moderation/censorship on IIS is about right. People should be allowed to air their views on any topic as long individuals or businesses aren't singled out for undue treatment. Anyone who has survived in business for a while will have a thick enough skin to not be too bothered by this thread.

[Nuri]

I agree Casstony, we should be free to express and exchange views.

Cydonia,

<if something went wrong with your Mount that you brought back from the US. Are you prepared to buy another return ticket to the US to take it back for warranty repair? If not then I rest my case. Most warranty is back to base, or the dealer you purchased it from and they send it back at their cost>

You can't be serious :) You are basically saying there is not one person capable of repairing a CGE mount in Australia! I think you'll find many would disagree. If electronic parts are required they can be imported from the US. In the worst case scenario, even a whole motherboard would probably be cheaper to buy directly from Celestron than a dealer in Australia... For smaller issues there is a wealth of information on the net... So I'm afraid you can't rest your case, after all :)

[Alchemy]

Passionate bunch aren"t we

Nice to see you have all got lots of money for those big dollar items.

I had a problem with my favourite astro store recently, i went in to purchase a paracorr for astrophotography, the only one in stock was the visual one, we checked the website at the store it said it could be photographically used, EXCELLENT, purchase made.

i got it home and the lens distance is no good for DSLR so i go back to mr manager tell him the problem, HE OFFERS ME BACK MY MONEY, .......so whats the problem..... its improved the view so much i am keeping it. Now i just know sitting on the shelf are some naglers..drool...another panoptic, so many choices not enough money.

Loosen up people buy wherever you want , im happy to return to good service.

[Stephen65]

Actually you do, just last week there was a thread discussing the difference between Canadian and US prices with Canadians complaining that they were paying more for exactly the same items.

Amateur astronomy would be advanced if prices made the hobby more affordable for everyone. To the extent that we are paying much more for the same scopes because of exclusive dealer arrangements then that's something that is damaging the hobby. No-one doubts that local warranty support has a value, but many would doubt its worth a 50% price loading.

[Terry B]

Yes but it is much more affordable than in the past. Under $1000 for a 10" dob . 20 years ago the prices were the same but the size was 1/2 and the wages were much lower.
It has become much more affordable.

[janoskiss]

Re Bintel Melbourne. I feel that the shop is serving the community very well. Sure nothing is perfect and I don't often deal with them over the phone, so cannot comment on that aspect, but from the many number of times I've visited the shop in person, I've received heaps for free in the form of service, help with ATM projects, mods, and even the odd bit of hardware from Roger's stash. Roger is especially great. Always makes me feel welcome and does not care if you are not buying anything and just want to pick his brain or have a chat. Never felt under any pressure to buy anything. Don't know of many other shops (astro or other) like that.

And re prices, some things are cheaper here some things are dearer. Way the cookie crumbles... Just about every bit of astro gear I bought here in Oz (from Bintel, MAS, AOE, Andrews, AEC, Frontier Optics, Star Optics) has been either significantly cheaper or cost about the same as in the US and generally a lot cheaper than in Europe so I had no reason to complain about prices. I understand it's different for American branded SCTs but meh.. :P

[cydonia]

I never said there isn't anyone in Australia capable of fixing the mount Nuri. What I am saying is would extravision, the sold Australian distributor, pay to fix your mount under warranty? I don't think so, considering they never made $1 on it. Sure, you can purchase at your own expense the boards or whatever to fix it, but it's at your expense. And I doubt there are many CGE mount owners out there wanting to play with their expensive mounts electronics!
If you want it done under warranty for free, you would have to send it back to the US dealer at your cost.

Having said all that, the local prices of Celestron products compared to thier Meade competitors makes you think twice before buying Celestron.

[brunono2]

Nobody minds paying an extra 10-20% in Australia but the difference is usually far higher than that

As a result I bought some equipment +-3 months ago from the USA that i subsequently dropped and needed repairing- the US dealer was fantastic and got the EQUIPMENT manufacturer in the USA to charge a low price and shipped it back to me UPS at no cost

If i had the same issue in Australia i doubt based on my past experience that i would have paid any less than it cost me to send it to the USA for repairs

When i have overpaid in the USA versus other USA dealers the USA dealer has usually refunded me the difference

Based on this experience why should i pay locally far more than the GST differential and also usually get poorer service?

Bruno