>1mW Laser pointers are illegal in victoria

[vespine]

As I just found out from this email:

The email is from an officer at the MELBOURNE AIRPORT AVIATION investigation team of the Australian Federal Police.

Note the 12 - 18 months ago, he's not kidding, I don't even have it in my ebay history anymore! Luckily I still have it, and didn't sell it or chuck it out. A bit of a creepy reminder of how much info they have access to if they tracked me down through a ebay purchase over a year ago....Anyway, just thought I'd share this with you in case someone is considering buying one of the hundreds of green laser pointers for under $20 now on ebay... hmm.

[Omaroo]

:scared: Is there any dispensation for astronomical club use in Vic?

The very fact that they bother is amazing.:sadeyes:

[vespine]

Not unless you have official exemption from the chief commisioner.... How funny would it be an astro get together being raided by the AFP... Not real funny thou, considering the size of the fines that could be handed out...

[ballaratdragons]

They are legal in Victoria (no permit required either) for Astronomy use only, and must be held in a Laser pointer bracket attached to a telescope.

That is the only condition an exemption is made.

So, if you wack it in a bracket (Bintel sell them) and attach it to your scope, you are filling the requirements.

[Gama]

About a year ago, i asked a customs inspector about the legal power limit , and he told me theres nothing in the books to say either way. So unless they changed the customs enry requirements, sounds very iffy..

Theo

[Rob_K]

Sorry Vespine, I don't buy it. First, Federal Police do not do their policing via email. Second, they don't say "I stress that this is not a joke".

Someone's pulling your leg!

Cheers

[ballaratdragons]

Yeah, I thought it was a bit suss too!

But just to protect yourself anyway in case some neighbour or stranger calls the police, wack it in a bracket and mount it.

It is actually illegal in Victoria to hand hold them, and totally illegal for non-amatuer-astronomers to have them.

[Ingo]

Even if they are illegal, 5mW shouldn't be bright enough for anybody but you to see anyways. You'll be developing your night vision and it'll be brighter. All you have to do is use common sense. As long as you don't point them at airplanes or anything stupid, nobody should bother with you.

[vespine]

to rob and ken, yes I thought it might be a trick but I'm pretty computer savvy, I work in IT and I have seen a LOT of spoof emails. Let me tell you if this is a trick, it is a very good one, it comes from a apf.gov.au address and has a person named at the bottom so it's not some "phantom" sender, also the person named has both a daytime phone number and a mobile number so it will be very easy to check. Also, since when do they not do anything by email? My ebay account is registered to my email address, hence the easiest way to reach me surely? They aren't as behind the times as you thing.

Either way, I have replied to the email asking about exemption for astro use, I will post as soon as I have a reply.

I actually have been contacted by the APF concerning the import of restricted items in the past:whistle: so I'm taking any chances...

Cheers:)

[Rob_K]

Sorry if I sounded dismissive Vespine. Seeing that others have received this email, it can't be just a leg-pull.

Not suggesting you ignore the email, but it brings up lots of questions. First is the long retrospectivity of it, on what in essence is a trivial matter in Customs terms (why don't they do this with eyepiece solar filters!! lol). Then there is a Federal/State jurisdictional matter. Then there is the issue of actual legality in Victoria, according to the interpretation offered by Ken. Then there is the issue of continued availability on ebay and in retail shops in Victoria. All seems very strange.... a clamp-down beginning with "ancient" purchases on ebay.

If it's ridgy-didge, I can't imagine that the AFP is accessing ebay personal information (well, it may, but could or would it use it in cases as trivial as this? It ain't terrorism!). Check ebay's Terms of Service maybe. Perhaps it came from the Customs declaration attached to your delivery. So does that have your email? I don't think my own OS deliveries have had my email address. Does the AFP have the resources to track down what is probably tens of thousands of these little blighters all over the country, purchased from all sorts of outlets?

I think you should contact the AFP, but not by reply to the email. Then hopefully things will be cleared up.

Anyway, good luck Vespine, & keep us informed! :thumbsup:

Cheers -

[erick]

There is an earlier thread that, I think, quotes or references the relevant Victorian law.

[Gama]

Im a little wobbly on the fact they replied to you. I remember when i ordered 10 Stun guns years ago, well, the package never arrived and i never got an email or phone call. I had to chase it up, when they told me it was confiscated. But if i wanted them i could go to court to retrive them. HMMM, i let it go.
But still, they didnt call me, they just confiscated it.


Theo.

Oh yeah, that will also mean ALL projector pointing devices from Dell Benq etc etc are illegal to sell or use in meetings.. No, something is amiss, plus why is the document so far in a "Notes" directory.. BALONY !.

[ballaratdragons]

Nope, that's probably why they said to go hand it in yourself.

[iceman]

Very interesting, I look forward to reading the developments as they come to hand.

[erick]

From Victorian Govt sites:-

http://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/CA256902000FE154/Lookup/CAV_Publications_Product_Safety/$file/laserpointers.pdf

List of Prohibited Weapons:-

http://www.justice.vic.gov.au/wps/wcm/connect/DOJ+Internet/Home/Community+Safety/Weapons/JUSTICE+-+List+of+Prohibited+Weapons
Strong laser pointer - any hand-held laser pointer that can emit a laser beam with an accessible emission limit of greater than 1mWWeapon # 022 "A hand-held battery-operated article commonly known as a "laser pointer" designed or adapted to emit a laser beam with an accessible emission limit of greater than 1mW." (See the attached photo - that is the photo given on the site of this "prohibited weapon".)


No mention of any exemptions. But note, as has been mentioned, this refers to "hand-held" so a laser pointer mounted in a fitting and only operated there would seem to be not in this category.

"A person can apply to the Chief Commissioner of Police for approval to use, possess, carry, sell or display prohibited weapons. Applications for approvals are made through the Licensing Services Division of Victoria Police."

[Stephen65]

As someone who occasionally deals with the AFP in a professional capacity I'm very suspicious about the authenticity of this email. First, the AFP does not have the jurisdiction, resources or even the interest to enforce Victorian criminal law, their jurisdiction is Federal criminal law. Why would they be sending out emails dealing with a possible violation of Victorian weapons laws let alone taking it on themselves to see to the destruction of the items?

Second, the AFP never sends official correspondence by email, let alone a formal warning before prosecution, its always on properly letterheaded mail. If they have information sufficient to prosecute you then they would already know your name and real address.

Third, the framing of the letter, the choice of language, just doesn't ring true to me. I've seen real letters from the AFP and this is too casual in its use of language and is missing the usual AFP-jargon and terms (eg they never refer to themselves simply as "Police").

I wouldn't reply to this email or ring the number supplied, instead I would ring the switchboard at the AFP office in Melbourne (9607 7777) and ask for the officer named in the email. If it is a fake they may be interested to know someone is impersonating an AFP officer - which IS an offence within their jurisdiction.

regards

[bojan]

Well, this is a bit off topic, but still....



It is interesting that ceramic knives are also on the list ( This is probably because they can not be detected by metal detectors at airports etc)...
They (kitchen knives) are very popular in Japan because they do not blunt with use.....

[vespine]

Well, i did reply to the email, an the response I got was here:
I will make that phone call to check, just for my curiosity. The only thing to note, is that yes it sounds suss, but this seems to be form a particular branch of the APF - JOINT AIRPORT INVESTIGATION TEAM - MELBOURNE AIRPORT AVIATION, maybe they do things a bit differently, maybe they are more involved with local law enforcement since the airport does not fall within local police jurisdiction. Anyway, I haven't used the pointer for about 6 months, so I'm gonna hand it it.
-Andee.

[erick]

"It is only lawful to use, possess, carry, manufacture, import or sell a prohibited weapon if a person has the appropriate approval from the Chief Commissioner of Police"

I wonder if the Astro shops have "appropriate approval" to sell them?

[Rob_K]

Don't go there Ekka! :P :lol:

I agree with Stephen - the >1mw pointers may be illegal without an exemption in Vic, but there's some sort of scam going on here.......

Cheers -

[avandonk]

While you are handing in the pointer maybe hand in any spare SIM cards. You just don't know how dangerous these things can be for YOUR health and liberty.

Bert

[vespine]

Well, I don't see what "the scam" could possibly acheive, and I just called the APF and confirmed the name and phone number of the person sending me the email is indeed correct...

[erick]

Yes, I understand why the prohibition, but I don't understand why it would exist for responsible astronomy use at the same time. I did look up the yearly cost of a permit but cannot find it at the moment. As I recall the permit fee was more the the purchase price of a laser pointer, and that was before the big price drop of the last months.


(Edit: found the fee - $148.80 if one doesn't hold a licence under the Firearms Act. Not sure how long a period of time that fee covers. By the way - storage requirements for the prohibited weapon apply as well).

[OneOfOne]

The fee covers 3 years. Although I have my laser mounted to my scope with a Lumicon bracket, I can loosen a screw and drop it out for public viewing. Technically, if you are lisenced (as I am), you are "legal". If the laser it "permanently mounted" you don't need a lisence, don't know how you would make it "permanent" though? Weld it?

Just fill out the form, mentioning what you are using it for, make sure you mention public educational usage rather than just private use just in case there is a problem if you use it at a public location. Send the money off and you will get your permit in a couple of weeks.

Personally, I think the email is a scam as it just doesn't "gel", but it is illegal in Victoria without a liscence.

Maybe you might want to put your name down for a few handgrenades, missiles, shot guns etc in case you need some at a later date.

[Starkler]

The question of jurisdiction is the one making me doubt the validity of this.
Why would the AFP be investigating breaches of Victorian law? Why wouldn't the contact come from Victoria Police in the first instance?

I dare say any information gleaned from ebay re prohibited weapons would more likely be used to persue real weapons, such as imported knives etc that teenage gangs tend to arm themselves with.

[vespine]

I can't be stuffed, the bracket to mout it to my scope is more then what I paid for the laser, and the last thing I want is police to come search my property, i'm just gonna hand it it. I'd rather fly under the radar then buck the system at the moment. If I really want another laser I'll go buy one from bintel and use cash, that way no one will be able to trace me.. I had considered taking the "laser" part out of my pointer and swapping it with a broken red one, just say the chinese pice of junk broke;). But then if they someohow did find out I'd tampered with it I'm sure the penalty would be much more severe..

[OneOfOne]

I sent the money to Victoria Police, not the Federal Police.

[Outbackmanyep]

How ridiculous........honestly.
This is the sort of garbage that really makes you hate governments.....
How is it a "weapon"!?
Fair dinkum!
They might as well ban HID headlights too......
Another revenue source for the state police and associated governments, next thing you know you'll have to have a 3 point lockable gunsafe bolted to the wall and floor just to store the thing!

[mick pinner]

l just contacted the Victorian Police Legal Policy Unit regarding the laser pointers and they will be getting back to me in a day or two with the legal requirements of possessing a pointer be it either hand held or permanently mounted.
They also told me the e-mail from the AFP is real because it is their jurisdiction and the only way they can contact those that have bought through E-Bay.

[Satchmo]

So why would anybody bother replying ???

[ballaratdragons]

Hmmm, I wonder if they will legislate telescopes? They make a good spy implement! :lol:

[acropolite]

Another case where our law enforcers are chasing the real criminals, everyone knows how dangerous a laser weilding astronomer is :P. If you're a thug on the street toting a knife that's OK.:tasdevil:

[anthony2302749]

I agree, it makes me wonder what kind of drugs the Victorian government is on. Why make a green laser which can be used in education a prohibited weapon and not a speargun which is classed as a controlled weapon (a knife is also a controlled weapon) and all you need is a lawful excuse to possess, carry or to use such a weapon.

I use this point of the speargun to hightlight a very important point, a speargun can be used to kill another person. This is true as there was a case in Melbourne were a Husband purchased a speargun took it home and killed is pregnant wife and then three days later is young daughter, dumping the bodies at the local land fill and then going on National TV to say that his wife had run of with his child. Had speargun been classed as a prohibited weapon they maybe still alive.

Also how many times have you hear on the news, read in the paper about some person being stabbed with a knife, lots of time. Have you hear of any one being injured by a laser, zero.

Making lasers a prohibited weapon in Victoria is purely a revenue raise such as speed cameras which do nothing it the way of reducing the road total. But of cause what do you expect of a government that can not organised a r**t in a wh*** house.

That ends my say on the subject.

[mill]

I have an AKC licence for sword posession and trading, there are very strict rules in the weapons act about storage of prohibited weapons.
The whole problem about lasers is that a green laser is prohibited?
A red laser is not? (just about every pen i have has a red laser in it)
Now why is an green laser prohibited i ask. Maybe because you can see the whole beam and not so with an red laser.
Anyway it is BS to let all other states out of this law and not Victoria.

[bojan]

Green laser is probably on the list because the human eye is most sensitive in green.. so 1mW in green has much more effect than 1mW in red.
But, I have not notice any note of colour, so it seems the prohibition is for everything above 1mW.
Still, lasers are everywhere today,, I wonder if laser level from Bunnings is also considered a weapon?
Yes, it is mounted on the level, but the level itself is not much bigger itself, and it is hand-held.. and the power output of such a laser is between 1~ 3mw.

[wasyoungonce]

You get idiots shining Lasers up at ACFT and at car drivers on highways. Which while at altitude (distance) is probably not a problem because the beam is attenuated.

At close range High powered Laser beams focus on the retina and since it is coherent light it is a powerful localised hot spot that easily damages the retina even with natural blink reaction.

The Vic law states Lasers must be less than 1mw output. Class 1 and 2 Lasers are ok if they are under that 1mw. Class 3 and above are illegal unless controlled.

http://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/CA256902000FE154/Lookup/CAV_Publications_Product_Safety/$file/laserpointers.pdf

Here is some facts sheets from defence.
http://www.defence.gov.au/dpe/dhs/infocentre/prevhealth/FACT_SHEET_Laser_Eye_Exposure.pdf

A quick goggle shows a bucket load of Lasers for Astronomy at far greater than 1mw...even neodymium doped lasers that have ranges over 12,000 ft. Man this stuff is dangerous in the hands of the general unwashed. Still it's the IR Lasers that are more dangerous as they do not invoke a blink reaction...aka that's why the military use near IR Lasers.... also because of less atmospheric attenuation at those wave lengths.

I'm not saying the Astronomy crowd would behave irresponsibly but these are not safe. Although all that said i reckon 1mw class 2 Laser of 1mw is generally quite safe. The spawning of the Laser diodes have created a nightmare for Law makers.

I was SNCOIC of F18 FLIR LTDR Pod /Laser Lab and systems at Williytown for a number of years as well as the Base LSO (Laser safety officer) and SNCOIC of Pavetack mirror control Laser head overhauls..a few moons to many ago!

[ballaratdragons]

This whole legislation stuff came about in Victoria because 2 stupid kids pointed a green laser at aircraft in Melbourne, about 2 years back.

One of the pilots said that he was hit in the eye by green light.

Gee, the kids must be damn good shots or had very expensive equipment to get a pilot in the eye in a cockpit of a plane way up in the sky!!! And the pilot said it as in his eye for several seconds!!! The kids must have had good tracking.

[DaveO]

The situation does not appear to be so draconian in Queensland (for a change).

I searched the Qld legislative web site, and the only references to lasers were as follows:

Control of therapeutic lasers
Control of industrial lasers in the workplace
Laser speed devices (speed guns)
Rifle-mountable laser sights for rifles (Class R Weapon)
Laser pointers at significant sporting eventsSo unless you decide to start observing at a major sporting event in Qld you should be okay.

Even so, I plan to check with my colleagues tomorrow - I am an IT contractor for Qld Police.

[ozships]

Actually, NSW has the same legal restrictions for lasers, see Division 18:
http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/fullhtml/inforce/subordleg+623+2002+FIRST+0+N

Class 1 and Class 2 lasers are both 1 mw or less.

[GeoffW1]

Hi,

Fascinating, NSW, Vic and WA, at least, all regulate in some way lasers greater than 1mW in power, classified as Class 3 or above to AS2211. At 1mW or less it is considered that the blink reflex provides adequate protection (would not like to test this) against accidental exposure, but there are still regulations designed to prevent malpractice, like the prohibition of toy weapons with a laser in them.

The laser pointers on the Andrews Comms website, advertised at 5mW, 10mW, and 20mW, are therefore a subject of some considerable interest. Perhaps it is a case of "legal to sell, but not legal to use" like Police radar detectors.

Cheers

[nmo]

The thing that amazes me is that there are all of these regulations in vic regarding Hand held laser pointers over 1mW but there doesn't seam to be anything about laser light shows DJ's use at all, and they come in varieties up to around 40mW. All they say is that qualified people should use them, nothing about licenses or permits.

Also I emailed the Vic police some time ago regarding mounting a laser pointer in a box with a larger power source or plug pack. They informed me that if the devices was originally designed to be hand held then it would still be prohibited. So I would be very cautious of anyone telling you that if you permanently mount it on the telescope it would be ok.

[bojan]

If this is so, then the solution to the problem might be the following:
- dismantle the laser and remove laser module and power regulator (if there is one, it will be inside more expensive models)
- mount everything in the enclosure permanently fixed to a telescope
- throw away the original, hand held enclosure

or, purchase the laser module only, without enclosure.

This way, you are effectively designing your own laser for permanent mount, and presumably you would satisfy the law.. or would you?

[vespine]

Well, believe it or not, I just got a call from the officer who sent me the email to talk to me and reassure me the legitimacy of his correspondence.

His name was Tristan Weston and his number is 03 9536 2666.

He said that I could put his contact details here and if anyone had any queries or concerns that they could contact him. They actually found ice in space, I hadn't mentioned it, and he even read this thread... So before you start calling blue murder and big brother, he was actually a very reasonable guy. He explained that he is a member of the Victorian police working in a joint AFP task force out of Melbourne Airport and he explained that there is a very legitimate reason for their operation. HE explained he specifically didn't use a bureaucratic tone in his email to me because he was trying to avoid sounding too persecuting. He realises we have no intention for using the laser in a criminal way but he explained that the majority of these hand held lasers are not used for any legitimate purpose and in the wrong hands can be very dangerous. He said he has spoken to the Chinese seller who sold me my laser pointer, and that he will be calling Bintel and others...

The most interesting part tho is he explained that after gathering an understanding of the purpose we use the laser pointer for, he was willing to contact the appropriate government authorities and attempt to have the act amended to specifically exclude lasers which have been permanently mounted to a telescope! Which would be great.. So I'll post again if the situation develops.

I'm really not interested in continuing an argument here about whether this is right or fair, so if you are just going to argue, please don't bother.

[iceman]

Very interesting developments, thanks for the update.

The guy sounded pretty reasonable and it's good that he explained the situation.

[ballaratdragons]

Well said.

If that's the law, that's the law. Let's just hope the gentleman concerned can help us legitimate users continue to teach the sky using the laser mounted on our scopes.

It will be nice to finally get the 'actual' regulations. :thumbsup:

[Satchmo]

Hopefully the law can be amended so that people clearly in the act of pointing out objects in the night sky ( handheld) are free to do so and perhaps in the possesion of a properly mounted laser bracket on their telescope.

[bojan]

Well, it is not only amateur astronomers who could be (and are, without them being aware of the situation) affected by this legislation.
There is a huge number of tools distributed by Bunnings, that have lasers mounted permanently as a vital part that ensures the correct and precise operation of that tool.... many of them are above the 1mW limit.
And all those gadgets are portable and hand-held.
It will be interesting to see how the situation will develop in the future....

[OneOfOne]

Yes, the infrared ones can be a bit dangerous. I worked for 25 years in the Telstra Research Labs and we had a carbon dioxide (infrared laser) with an output of 600W, no I didn't forget the "m", (peak pulse power was about 1.2kW, thats 1,200,000mW) and that little sucker could cut through 3mm steel like butter, perspex was even more fun! We even used it at times for "real" work! I still have my name burnt into a piece of wood with it. I don't think it would be much use for pointing out stars though, being invisible. But if a plane flew overhead, it would probably just got straight through and cut the wing off :lol:

[bojan]

Well, 600W is still "only" 600W average, this is not enough to cut the aluminium sheet wing off, certainly not with speed of >200km/h (unless you have good tracking)
But it could sure damage something, if it hits some vital parts, like hydraulics pipes or persplex window... not to mention people or their eyes.

[wasyoungonce]

Well the idea of a "death ray" sounds good but in practice atmospheric and specular diffusion attenuate the beams a bucket load. All cutting Lasers are focused beams where as high powered tight beam Lasers ionise the air and burn floating particles which interfere with the beam itself causing it to gradually attenuate and beam spread.

Still I'd luv a 1.2Kw CO 2 Laser to get get that stray Cat that keeps c@%7)/ on our door step...insert evil laugh!

But it boils down to this, if they can get a tight beam from a green Laser (500nm) 5mw to shine 12,000 ft plus these days I'm not surprised that the Law is intervening. I see that IR laser diodes are used to pump the Laser crystal rods in some Lasers. No wonder they are so powerful and of course the IR Laser diode pump is not a desirable piece of kit to play with. One shot and you'll never see properly again....worse case scenario.

I'd severely doubt that the Laws will be amended to Preclude Astronomy Lasers from the "Acts" power limits. This would take an investigation by a scientific research Lab (such as AWADI or the QLD Uni optics Lab), which of course, needs to be paid for.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings.

[DaveO]

For those in Queensland, good news.

I had previously asked a Senior Sargent with whom I work to check up on the issue here in Queensland. I spoke to him today and he confirmed that laser pointers are NOT an issue in Queensland.

However chaps, I would have to point out that some of the comments above are probably in poor taste in this day and age. While I know they are made in jest, given the fact that our Victorian cousins would like to have the Act amended, and it is a known fact that at least one member of the Victorian Constabulary has been reading this thread, I would suggest that we tone down on some of the comments. Its just like joking about bombs and planes - you don't do it any more! Just my 2 cents.

[Satchmo]

Its called exercising Freedom of Speech :)

[wasyoungonce]

Nothing said that couldn't be found in a 15 second Google search!
:whistle:

[Apocrisiary]

I see iceinspace is advertising Wicked Lasers...why muck around with 10 and 20mW when you can buy a 300mW direct from them??!!
I hope they don't start shutting down websites advertising such illegal weapons.

[iceman]

Was it in a google ad?
I doubt sites can or would be held responsible for what the google ad comes up with. The laser ad only would've only come up because they're being talked about in this thread :)

[OneOfOne]

Interesting, the laser could slice through 3mm steel (admittedly through a lens and with oxygen to get it all going) but it would not cut through alfoil! Steel is something like 60% reflective and gets enough heat in to get started whilst ali is more like 99% preventing the stuff from getting going. Apparently a couple more kW and it would melt and the reflectivity dropped significantly...then you could cut it.

We were working with this laser in the days of "Star Wars" development and we saw this shot of a laser being fired at a mock up spy satellite sitting a few metres away. After several seconds the thing "exploded", but they failed to point out that the thing had several hundred kg of weight sitting on top of it, was held down with "bungi ropes", the beam was focused and was right next to it...minor point I guess in their case. In our case if the beam was not focused, it barely scorched paper. Getting it to travel through several km of air and being able to do anything to a moving target was thought to be a huge joke.

The whole star wars thing is best sumarised by a quote from a documentary I saw back then, I can't remember the exact figures, but the story goes something like this.

Politician who gives the nod for more money sees demonstration and is impressed.
Scientist showing demo says "and that is with just 10 to the power of 10 watts per square mm, to get a real satellite in orbit we need 10 to the power of 20 watts."
Politician "So we are half way there already!"
Scientist, rubbing hands :D

Wish I could be that dumb and get paid that much money to give the ok to someone so much smarter.

[bojan]

This is not a surprise... In case of cutting though steel the oxygen is crucial. Cutting of steel with acetilene flame works only because there is excess of oxygen supply so steel is actually burning and this is where the required heat energy is coming from, not from the flame itself.
Aluminium has much better reflectivity, but also much better thermal conductivity, so it cools down more rapidly. Also, there is always that very thin and dense layer of oxide on aluminium surface that prevents further oxidation...

[Apocrisiary]

Hi Mike, Yeah the ad is in with this thread. I went to a different one and hey presto different ads! As a note we haven't had any requests from the AFP to stop selling these items at Bintel yet.

[erick]

BIG ad!

[wasyoungonce]

A little off track but I was pondering the reason why the CO2 would cut steel but not aluminium? I've cut paper and cardboard with a CO2 but never tried metal as it might reflect somewhere unwanted. Anyway.

The Laser works by coherent light beam which adds energy to the metal (things it hits) by the electrons absorbing the wave (and presumably parts of the nucleus of the atom) which raises it to ionisation levels...a simple Bohr atom model here. With so much energy there is ionisation..breaking atomic bonds...aka it cuts the metal.

Now Aluminium and steel can be described as a ionic lattice with a sea of de-localised electrons (which give the metal lustre). Steel is an iron/carbon lattice alloy, aluminium is usually alloyed with manganese.

Aluminium is a group 13 element with more core charge (more electronegative element) but a lower melting point than steel. But, aluminium also has a much larger ionisation energy than Steel. The beam wave length cannot promote or excite an Aluminium electron to ionise easily. So I'm assuming that the sea of de localised electrons (ionic bond) and ionisation energy required has something to so with the fact the Laser wouldn't cut Aluminium.

So the Aluminium doesn't really reflect the beam. The Beam cannot ionise the atoms electrons to free them...aka make a cut.

Does that make any sense? Anyone here knowledgeable on atomic models? Ionisation energy of elements?

All very intriguing:help:!

[bojan]

I think not. IR laser cuts aluminium also, but it needs to have higher power output, to cope with high thermal conductivity of aluminium. And it is pure thermal effect, no need for intricacies of quantum mechanics here, apart from absorbing the energy of the beam... Things like that (destruction of chemical bonds due to strong EM fields produced by laser pulse) are happening at very high power and short pulses, lasers like that are being under development these days. I have read somewhere that they achieved ultra-short pulses, duration of couple of femto seconds, and peak powers achieved were >MW or higher.

Laser steel cutting with relatively low powers are possible by the help of violent oxidation that releases a lot of additional heat.
BTW, aluminium is also very hard to weld for the same reason, apart from oxidation at the surface (so there is a need for neutral atmosphere or anything that prevents oxygen to come in contact with aluminium surface)

[wasyoungonce]

I was looking at the thermal conductivity of Aluminium but discarded it because it was mentioned that it wouldn't cut thin sheet, still it must have heated it.

Still, thermal conductivity is a product of the elements strong ionic bond. IR Laser is already probably producing greater energy more than likely due to the nature of the crystals used and crystal pump (flash tube energy). A flash tube producing light, Ep=hf. Decrease wave length of light (UV light) thus Increase the photon energy to do work upon Laser crystal....

Also high powered Lasers reflect the wave back and forth in the crystal rod creating a nice standing wave harmonic and this is output by a Q switch as a pulsed wave.

Thanks.

[wasyoungonce]

Back on subject. This wiki link describes Laser and aviation dangers and shows simulated vision strikes with various powered Lasers.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lasers_and_aviation_safety

It's probably a bit over the top but may help in visualising (pardon the pun) the dangers.

[xraydelta1]

Dave put me onto this thread and it's pretty mind blowing. The MPAS uses a green laser for public viewing nights but I feel thats not going to happen anymore. I intend to contact the AFP member mentioned and find out what we need to do.:shrug:

I'm also in the CFA, and thought of using a 5mW green laser to detect faint smoke in confined spaces... smoldering light fittings, that sort of thing, so I got one off ebay for about $30. It didn't arrive: it was returned as unclaimed. I asked them to repost it so it'll be interesting to see if/when I get it.

I agree with almost everyone else it's a bit:screwy:

[wasyoungonce]

It is quite apparent that the Laws are lagging new technology. Quite obviously Lasers have many modern uses that are quite legitimate.

It's just the odd few idiots that spoil it all for the sensible users:

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22215301-29277,00.html

I was also watching the footy highlights on TV last week..some Westcoast game where some idiot fan (read drunken yob) stripped to his Jocks and was waving his top over his head.

If you looked closely you can see his body being spotted buy a HeNe Laser.

So you have to ask what idiot brings a Laser to a footy game?....to spot opposition players eyes?

What we need is bigger penalty's to mis-use not totalitarian bans.

edit:

Have to Laugh, maybe the Military should be banned for mis-use as well!:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/08/07/1998980.htm

That was with a very high powered NdYag IR Laser no less!

[centauri]

For those of us in WA the legal limit is <5mw then you have to apply for registrations,licences,safety licence and so on and so on and so on
$138 per year just for the registration, OMG!

[JethroB76]

I think players were being 'laser-ed' in last nights AFL game

[wasyoungonce]

Yep they were, confirmed in the Press today! It was a green Laser.

As you can see...idiots and things like this don't mix.

[tornado33]

What about these babies
http://www.laserglow.com/index.php?portable
up to 400 MILLIWATT!
WOW!

[Stevo69]

I have no doubt about this but where is this written on an official document somewhere. Dept. of Justice or similar government office.

I want to be able to quote it when someone comes knocking on my door.

[tornado33]

Did you know you can make a 200+ mW red laser strong enough to light a match, by taking the laser diode from a DVD RW unit and putting it into a low power laser pointer, replacing its existing low power diode
http://www.instructables.com/id/EWM4YR2F4WY1LQ2/
I had a dead DVd RW here (Liteon) I got the diode/heatsink assembly out, connected it to 2 Ni Mh AA cells and wow this deep red diffuse light lit up the ground (I had it facing down). It was many, many times brighter then my 0.8 mW red laser pointer. Ive no doubt if that diode was installed into a laser pointer it would show a very visible red beam and go for many km. Sadly, on trying to remove the diode from the heatsink I damaged it, it no longer lases, rather just emits a small amount of red light like a normal diode.

To make a really exotic (and dangerous ) pointer get one of these
http://www.photonic-products.com/products/sanyo_violet_laser_diodes/sanyo_violetblue.htm
a blue-violet laserdiode

[tornado33]

100 milliwatt ones are back on Ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/BRAND-NEW-green-100mw-laser-pointer_W0QQitemZ300146147315QQihZ0 20QQcategoryZ14954QQssPageNameZWDVW QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[bojan]

Visibility of the red laser beam is very, very low, compared to green.. Red light simply does not scatter in the atmosphere sufficiently, plus our eyes are not sensitive to red light.

[mill]

And even an 130 milliwatt one.
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/130mWATT-RECHARGEABLE-MOBILE-GREEN-LASER-532nm-DPSS_W0QQitemZ180155235486QQihZ008Q QcategoryZ294QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ 1QQcmdZViewItem

[Stevo69]

Not anymore! It has been removed.

[Louwai]

The idiots are at it again....

http://www.smh.com.au/news/general/laser-beam-targets-plane/2007/09/11/1189276667150.html

[speach]

No they are not up to 1mW search the Victorian Police web site for laser pointers. This is what is on the site @ 26_04_14:-

Laser pointer
A hand-held, battery-operated article designed or adapted to emit a laser beam with an accessible emission limit of greater than 1 mW.