A great comparison test with the new 120ED

[ballaratdragons]

Andy Raiford at 'Andys Shotglass' has done a good review and comparison shoot out between the NEW 120ED and an Astrophysics 130mm Apo.

Looks like Orion has created a winner!!!! An Astrophotographers dream :) Just like having the 'bigger than an ED80' scope we've wanted at f7.5.

http://www.andysshotglass.com/120ed.html

[RB]

I've tried the 100ED and loved it.
More bang for buck for sure !

I can only imagine what the 120ED is like.
Looks like another legend in the making.

:thumbsup:

[ballaratdragons]

Yep Andrew.

Only problem is the price at around $4000-$5000 in Oz!!! $1900 in USA!!!!

[RB]

:eyepop:
I didn't realise it was that high !

[ballaratdragons]

Yep, sold in Oz under the name Skywatcher 120ED too.

[Astroman]

yeah prices in Australia are highway murder.

[skies2clear]

Ouch! I was interested till I heard the price over here. Might be worth considering getting in yourself from o/seas, especially with the current exchange rate.

Thanks for the comparison too!

CS
Nick

[ballaratdragons]

Yep, even with exchange rate and freight etc it will end up way under the $4000-$5000.

Which is a pity because I always promote buying local!

[casstony]

120ED with HEQ5 goto for $4900 http://www.geckooptical.com/cgi-bin/gecko/index.cgi?catid=2&subcatid=11&adid=1186
The price differences lead me to think that the distributor is playing funny buggers with the pricing.

[Starkler]

If serious you should contact the shop advertising the goods. Often the web advertised price and the real price are significantly different.

[janoskiss]

Nice writeup but shame he did not update the page about the Meade ED 127mm. That scope is a lot less expensive in Oz.

[ballaratdragons]

I googled but haven't been able to find the Meade in Oz yet, but it is an f9.3 anyway.

[janoskiss]

Meade ED 127mm f/7.5 apo triplet has been out for a while.
https://www.bintelshop.com.au/Product.aspx?ID=7158

[ballaratdragons]

WOW! :eyepop: Thanks Steve, never seen or heard of it before!!! :)

$2799 is a good price!

[Starkler]

I've done a bit of searching on CN and it seems that these Meade scopes haven't appeared in stores as yet and its a long running saga a-la 16" lightbridge.
I'm certainly interested to know more about them though.

[MortonH]

The Meade 127mm ED scopes have been 'vaporware' for quite some time. A couple of months ago I was told May/June...

I was interested in the 120ED as well but they're just too pricey here. Instead, I found myself a second-hand Vixen ED115S. I'm waiting on Bintel sorting me out a bracket to attach it to my TeleVue mount and then I'm off and running.

I've looked at Andy's Shot Glass website several times, hoping he'd update it with Part 2. Note that he describes "contrasty views" rivalling the AP130, but no mention of possible false colour.

BTW, when Bintel had their Skywatcher sale the 120Ed was $3,750, but it's gone back up by a grand! The Vixen ED115S is around $3,800 in Australia, and it has had some very good reviews (see Cloudy Nights or Astromart - same review though!). I can't wait to try mine out.

Morton

[Stephen65]

The last word I read on CN about the Meade 127mm APO said shipping dates had been pushed back to August. I was also interested in the Skywatcher/Orion 120ED but with Bintel listing the OTA at $4800 (it sells for US$2000 in the USA) I started considering other options.

[chris lewis]

I have the Orion ED 80/100 and will upgrade to a 5 in APO soon. I think I will wait for the reviews between the Orion 120ED and the Meade 127 5000 APO.At present the Meade 'appears' to be the better buy - it is a triplet, it is 7mm more [which is significant] and it is cheaper. If Meade have sorted out there Q.A. issues it should be a 'best buy' - but will wait for the reviews.

[brian nordstrom]

[quote=Stephen65;216393]The last word I read on CN about the Meade 127mm APO said shipping dates had been pushed back to August. I was also interested in the Skywatcher/Orion 120ED but with Bintel listing the OTA at $4800 (it sells for US$2000 in the USA) I started considering other options.[/:shrug: yes what about the exchange rate? pluss shipping[in ulk] it does not add up someone is trying to make to much profit . aven taken into consideration our n z $ to your aus. $ makes you think.. but a direct comparison would be interisting. my vote is with the ed120 only because of meades bad custemer relations in the southern hemesphere .clear skies.:thumbsup: quote]

[brian nordstrom]

:thumbsup: lucky you chris. i also have an ed80 what an awsome little scope almost faultness in optical quality .anyway if and when you upgrade to an ed120 will you be selling your ed100? mmmmmm. :welcome:

[brian nordstrom]

:mad2: yes as in my last two quotes they are being to greedy? or what it does just not add up i hope they subscribe to this web site to keep their expectations down here on earth money wise .because i believe that at those prices not many will be sold .but a great many will be imported privatly .got your ears on?;)

[Stephen65]

I don't know what the basis for the Australian pricing is but A$4800 for a telescope that sells in the US for US$2000 is a very substantial mark-up, even considering the extra costs of shipping to Australia instead of the USA, customs duty, GST and the exchange rate.

By way of comparison, the WO FLT-132 (a slightly bigger and higher quality APO) lists for US$3800 but is sold here for $5700.

[anthony2302749]

This is what a Skywatcher/Orion ED120 can do when you hook a 350D on to it. Visual it is fantastic as well, sweet when used with a 17mm Nagel

[mick pinner]

l would still like a dealer to explain why such a difference in $US to $AUS.
After commenting in a previous thread that l thought the astro community was being somewhat taken for a ride l was contacted by the owner of a large well known outlet and asked to justify my comments so in reverse l would like the price difference to be explained so we could have confidence in the fact that our retailers are only trying to make a fair and reasonable profit and not unfairly inflating the price.

[skies2clear]

This is the thing that worries me about Meade refractors, going by many reviews I've read over the last 6 months. Perhaps not specifically this model (127 mm ED), but many of the other models seem variable in quality. I think the Orion may be a safer bet if the price was right. BUT, I could be wrong! :shrug:

CS

[MortonH]

As far as Skywatcher is concerned, my understanding is that it is them, not the retailers that are to blame.

With Orion, are we perhaps paying an additional premium because they are coming via the USA?

Also, every time a retailer buys some stock from the distributor, they pay a different price, which has to be passed on to the customers. That's why Astro Optical's website quotes a price range for each item because the price changes with every order they receive.

Having said all that, I don't understand why the 'exchange rate' for the 100ED is so different from the 120ED. Maybe there's such a demand they think people will pay the extra?

At the end of the day, we, the consumers, have the ultimate say because we can choose not to buy, and then the price will have to come down when they end up with surplus stock.

As for the Meade 127mm, I'm not holding my breath, either for its eventual appearance or its quality.

Morton

[chris lewis]

I would have to sell both to fund a 5 inch APO. [ I'am not that rich !]. Actually I would keep the ED100 a head of the ED80 if I could. The ED80 starts to get dim at 160x+ whilst the ED100 can sustain good images at 240x -260x. 4 in. is the minimum really for 'good' planatary viewing and most of my observing is planatary. The ED80 is a great scope - just that the ED100 is more suited for my needs. I meant to quantify the 'significant' light gain from 120mm to 127mm: To go from 100 to 120 is a 1.44x light gathering increase or a 44% gain. To go from 100 to 127 is a 1.61x light gathering increase or a 61.3 % gain. I believe you need a 17% increase befrore your eyes notice the difference - in the above case the difference is 17.3% - so it will be noticable - although minor. The increase from the ED80 to the ED100 is 1.56x or a 56.25% increase. The jump from 80mm to 120mm is 2.25x or 125%. From 80mm to 127mm is is 2.52x or 151%. Every light photo gained is important .

[Stephen65]

Another option are the Vixen scopes - they make 120 and 140mm scopes that they call neo-achromats (NA120 and NA140), they are achromats with four instead of two glass elements.

According to CN the colour correction is good and superior to a standard achromat but not as good as a true apo made with ED glasses. I saw the 120mm listed at $2000 at myastroshop and astro-optical has the 140mm on its website listed in the 2-3K price band.

If you don't like the Australian dollar prices you could alway just order the 120ED from Orion in the USA for US$2000 and pay shipping, customs etc.

[garymck]

Hi,

was quoted $2550 by The Telescope Shed for the Saxon version of the Synta 120 ED. Looks a lot more reasonable in price than others....

cheers
gary

[Starkler]

Now thats a bit more in line with expectations. :thumbsup:

[iceman]

I don't understand the complaints about AU prices versus importing direct from overseas.

There's no doubt that local prices are more expensive than importing it yourself. Surely that's expected, right? These local businesses are businesses. While it does not suit us as consumers, they are in business to make a profit. They pay rent, they pay staff, they pay advertising, they pay tax.
Not to mention, the Australian amateur astronomy community is pretty small so they can't rely on lower prices and large volume. It's a very limited market.

They also have to give warranty support.. something you may not get when you import it yourself. Or if you do, you'll more than likely have to pay the shipping bill to send it back.

You can't honestly expect an Australian retailer, with all of those overheads, to sell something at the same price you'll get it for by importing it direct? You will have to pay shipping, customs duty + GST, and you take a risk with warranty support.

There are pros and cons to buying local or importing direct, but I don't think it's fair for local retailers to cop the brunt because they're not selling at the exact same price you can get it for. There are very legitimate reasons for it - but you have the choice.

How many of you buy big household items from overseas? Plasma TV's, computers, stereos etc? Surely they're cheaper to buy from overseas stores as well? But most of you would probably get it at the local harvey norman or similar. Why? Because you want that local support and warranty. You want to be able to take it back and get a new one if something is wrong. Why is telescope gear any different?

The exchange rate fluctuates.. just because it's high at the moment doesn't mean that local vendors are ripping you off. They're stock may have been sitting in the warehouse for 6 months, bought back when the exchange rate was low. It may give you personally more weight in your argument to import direct, but it doesn't mean the vendors are ripping you off.

You'll probably find that most local retailers are prepared to haggle somewhat, or offer discounts if you buy multiple items at once, or you're a regular return customer.

Would you prefer all retailers to run their businesses right on the margin? Make very little money to give you cheaper prices, and then go out of busniess?

We need more vendors in Australia. Competition helps bring down prices. One way to get more vendors is to have more demand. More amateur astronomers. Websites like IceInSpace are important to help promote and grow amateur astronomy in Australia. To encourage people to stay away from the dept store refractor and get the right advice, buy the right telescope that will see them stay in the hobby - not buy something they'll use once and put in the back of the garage.

I've bought items both locally and overseas. Sometimes the overseas experience has been good, sometimes bad. I've done research at time on buying overseas and buying local, and for small items at times it's turned out that it's only $20-$50 dearer buying locally. Yes i'd prefer to not spend that extra money, but if it means I can go into the store and pick it up instead of hoping that it makes it through customs or doesn't get lost in the post, for you it may be worth it. For larger items like telescopes, the warranty issue alone is a big risk - something I'd probably not take the risk on but you may be different.

As with everything, it's your choice. Do your research and make the decision for you. But I don't agree with the bagging of local vendors because they're not offering it to you at the same price you can get it for by importing direct.

[casstony]

Australian retailers generally do a good job (eg. Televue eyepieces). However distributors manipulate pricing to suit themselves and sometimes this leads to excessive pricing (eg. Pentax XW eyepieces).

[duncan]

Hi all,
I do agree with Icemans last post here. But i think half the gripe is the simple fact that our government is hell bent on taxes etc. for things that aren't manufactured here. That's what inflates these prices to a ridiculous level in my humble opinion.:shrug:

[casstony]

You're opening a can of worms there Duncan. I think tax is not very hefty on astro-goods, and I don't mind paying 10% gst to support schools, etc.

[duncan]

All i'm saying is we shouldn't have to pay extra if it is not manufactured here. I don't know the full extent of the taxes and excise, import duties etc. Maybe we need to do more to help small business so we can get these things made here instead of overseas? We all realise that retailers here need to make a profit otherwise why would you bother. We had a guy in Cairns making small scopes from the ground up along with Gem cutting (Facetting) gear. He got out because of all the red tape. Used to make great, no exceptional cutting gear. This of coarse is only my opinion. But i wouldn't go into business at the moment with all the red tape to strangle every move you make.:shrug:

[Stephen65]

No-one is suggesting Iceman that its simply a matter of comparing the self-import price (ie US retail price converted to $A plus shipping plus GST plus insurance plus customs) to the Australian price, there are obviously advantages to buying locally including warranty support and transfer of shipping risk to the vendor. I just bought a larger refractor from an Australian retailer that I could have imported myself for those very reasons, and because I thought their Australian retail price was very fair.

But its a question of degree how much more the Australian retail price should be than the US retail price taking all those things into account. When I see one refractor selling in Australia for 2.4 times its US price and another made in the same country selling for 1.5 times its US price then I query why the first is so much more expensive comparatively. Part of a competitive market is not just the order overseas option, its also the option of buying locally a scope that does not have an excessive markup on it.

[wavelandscott]

While straying badly from the thread title...

Believe it or not, the pricing thing does cut the other way too...

At least for a period of time the "indicative" pricing of the Pentax eyepeices was at par or below that avaialble in the US...not sure about this moment in time.

In a free market situation you charge what the market can bear...to do otherwise is irrational...

Continued Good Purchasing!

[MortonH]

It can also depend on the stocks held by the vendor. If a shop buys stock at a high price (because of the exchange rate at the time) they are not going to reduce the price on that particular stock just because the exchange rate has improved since then. We don't know which items have been in stock for a while and which ones have just arrived.

You should feel sorry for people in the UK. Some scopes there are almost the same price in pounds as they are for us in dollars!

Morton

[Stephen65]

UK prices certainly are high, I think it has to do with higher customs and GST (VAT) charges.

In many cases when equipment is made in a third country (ie Pentax EPs in Japan, many telescopes in China/Taiwan) the goods don't travel through the USA to get here so the Australian price could, depending on the exchange rate against that third party's currency and the comparative costs of shipping to Australia versus shipping to US, be lower than in the US. The disadvantage we have of course is the very much smaller market than the US and so our retailers have both less bargaining power with manufacturers and distributors to get cheaper wholesale prices and need to charge higher retail margins to stay in business.

I suspect the exchange rate thing cuts both ways, at the moment the Australian dollar is high against the $US and yen and customers have an expectation of pricing based on the current rate which can hurt retailers who paid for stock months ago when the $A was lower. However, when the $A drops, as it inevitably will, stock paid for now will be comparatively cheaper for the retailer.

[casstony]

True. Just as it is irrational for consumers to not compare pricing to check they are not being gouged on a purchase. Paying anything over $3000 for a ed120 would be irrational.
Also: XW10mm price in Japan, converted to AU$ + 10% gst = $340, compared to $450 here, soon to be $500 I suspect. XF on the other hand comes to about $193, which is acceptably close to the $215 charged here.

[ballaratdragons]

I started this thread so those interested in stepping up to the new ED120 could read a recent review and comparison test, not as a free-for-all against retailers!!!!!

Yes, they may be dear, but if you want something bad enough, you'll pay for it!

I believe that some of the retailers in Oz do a sterling job satisfying our demanding requests. 3 cheers to those retailers.

I'm sorry I started this thread now!

[casstony]

Most of the posts have NOT been against retailers. If one or two posts do attack retailers but are balanced by other posts supporting retailers no harm is done and we may learn a little. Free but polite speech.

[janoskiss]

Don't be sorry Ken. I read the review and found it very informative. :)

[Starkler]

We normally compare prices with US dealers and they have overheads and profit margins built in also. They have advertising and warranty support costs as well. This is not a comparison of local retail vs foreign wholesale, the comparison is all at the retail level.

Some adjustment should be made for the local US state taxes that are not included in the advertised price. So when comparing prices, add GST then look again.

Economies of scale can account for some of the difference, but in some cases the differences have the appearance of blatant profiteering. All we can do is weigh our options and vote with our wallets.

[g__day]

Well apart from the strange drift from the title ... I'll say that if USA imports from China in volume and we import from either China or the USA at far lower volume, our costs could be absolutely higher, even though you'd think distribution cost by sea would be half. But that's not so because the USA has such large volumes of imports I'm sure their cost per good is far lower than ours.

Secondly you shouldn't compare retail buy or sell prices, as its dealer buy prices that you're really pondering. And once again dealer buying power for the half dozen retailer here who combined sell hundreds of scopes a year is not going to compare favourably to dealers in the USA that aggregrate buying power and buy hundreds of thousands or millions of similar scopes per year.

But personally - back on topic, seeing the astrophotgraphs APOs of this size produce, I can clearly understand where a 4" or 5" quality APO sits as an imaging platform. For several objects its ideal. I guess each scope has objects its design is better suited for within its aperature and price class.

[Stephen65]

A 4 or 5" APO is never going to compete with a much larger reflector when it comes to sheer light grasp and thus image brightness and resolution, even when you factor in the reflector's obstruction and greater light loss off the mirrors. But for sharpness and contrast on planetary and wide field photos they do seem to be excellent.

[Stephen65]

Back on topic, or closer to it....re the Meade 127mm APO, there is a post on the CN refractor forum today describing a conversation with the Meade rep at NEAF where the poster was told by the rep that the current release date is September/October 2007 and that if you are not on a wait-list soon you will not get one this year.

[anthony2302749]

Thats OK Ken I added a photo taken through an ED120 and had no comments. Currently that ED120 is sitting under the computer desk waiting for a new observatory.

[casstony]

I think that's a beautiful image Anthony, but as I don't do any imaging I didn't feel qualified to comment. Is the scope introducing a little CA on the brighter stars? Have you used the ed100 for comparison?