"Training" the Meade ETX-90

[ninja2]

I had some problems with my ETX-90 during alignment. With the help of my local vendor we concluded the handbox was misdirecting the scope during alignment. So he reloaded the handbox software and now it's behaving much better.

However the GoTo accuracy still seems not very good. So I was reading up on "training" the ETX-90 at Weasners site (impressive but *very detailed*):
http://www.weasner.com/etx/techtips/etx_tuneup3.html

It explains how to use Polaris if training for Alt_Az mode usage, or to train for Polar/Equatorial mode using a terrestrial target,

Curiously the Meade Intruction Manual only explains training using a terrestrial target, and makes no mention of training using Polaris (or the South Celestial Pole)

At this stage I'm happy to use either mode, but I have a couple of questions:

1) What target can I use for Alt_Az training when I need to point to the South Celestial Pole. I know how to find SCP ... but AFAIK there's no easily visible star close to SCP (I'm in suburban Adelaide)

2) if I train using a terrestrial target can I only expect it to work in Polar mode, or can I also to use Alt_Az mode successfully?

thanks in advance ...

[AndrewJ]

Gday Chris


You should ALWAYS do drive training using AltAz mode and a terrestrial target. You should also try to use a target where the OTA is as close to perpendicular to the RA/Az axis as you can get.
All drive training does is measure the backlash in the geartrain so that when the direction reverses, it can account for it.
That said, what firmware version doyou have loaded?????



Andrew

[ninja2]

G'day Andrew

Setup > Statistics tells me version A3S5 ...

By concidence you're the second person today to explain the purpose behind training (i.e. backlash compensation) and that really helps understanding (thanks!).

Does it matter how tall the training target is. How about a mobile phone tower, and to get the elevation I set the telescope up say, 10 metres from the tower base, is that good choice? Should I move even closer, or maybe look for something much higher, a mountain side / cliff maybe ? :)

[AndrewJ]

Gday Chris
I dont know A3S5 well but dont really recommend it for LX90s.
As to training targets, its not height you need, its distance.
If you set up AltAz, set the tripod flat and level, then pick a target as far away as you can on the horizon.
If you are on a wedge, again, pick a target on the horizon and keep the OTA reasonably close to DEC = 0.
Andrew

[ninja2]

Huh? I assume A3S5 is latest. Why don't you recommend it? i.e. what do you recommend for an ETX-90?



OK, I now realise I misinterpreted 'perpendicular' in your previous pointer:



I understand now... tks again

[AndrewJ]

Gday Chris

No its not:D
A4S1 is the latest, and its orrible as well ( I suspect you may have had that loaded, as its caught a few people now )


Its full of bugs, and also, in an attempt to get LX80s working, Meade have been reworking how motor speed calculations get done, PEC has been neutered to be almost useless and new bugs have been introduced.
As such, i gave up trying to patch the later firmwares as ( IMHO ) there was no benefit.

What type????
ie is it an older classic or one of the new units with the plugs in the fork arms???
The new ETX-90s use a different drive system to the older ones and as such need to be selected with correct ratios in order to work.
Recent firmwares cocked this up and select the new units using the old ratios, and as such, they wont point properly.
Need to know more about what you have, but i would probably suggest using patched A1F7 firmware, and selecting your mount as an ETX-80.


Andrew

[ninja2]

Well well well, the plot thickens!



That's all more than a bit concerning! Is this sad state widely acknowedged by the Meade user community?



Mine's brand new, the handbox plugs into the fork arms



Where do I find all these different firmware variants?

mucho thanks

[AndrewJ]

Gday Chris
Yep. Its one of the reasons we resorted to writing patches.
Lots of threads out there on this now on the yahoo and Cloudy nights sites. Weasner closed down his site before a lot of this came out, so you wont find much re it on his archives.

OK, then i am guessing that your original handbox had A4S1 on it, and in this case, it would not have worked with your mount if you selected ETX-90 for the model. If you had selected ETX-80, it would have worked.
A3S5 will correctl select the new ETX-90s but i stil dont like its bugginess.
ref https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/592825-etx-90-problems/


As per above, there are lots of threads on the CN and Yahoo sites dedicated to Meades re this, so i suggest you read a few before jumping. The patches, firmwares and 3rd party loader are all on the StarPatch site http://www.stargps.ca/downloads.htm
but as per above, i suggest reading some other sites first before doing anything.
Also, Meades ASU will not properly update user data or load satellites, asteroids, tours etc to your handbox either, as Meade broke the code when they switched to the new processor in the Audiostar Hbx.

You will need to use my PEC editor to do that ( if you want to ).
Andrew

[ninja2]

Thanks Andrew, I'll go do some reading !

Possibly related question: So when I compared particular RA/Dec numbers on the Audiostar screen with those for same object/same time on SkySafari app on my android, and Starry Night Pro on my PC, I noticed the Audiostar numbers were always a bit different to SkySafari & Starry Night, whilst the latter two were always in very close agreement.

When I say a bit different , from memory it was like/around 2 seconds (Dec) but I may I need to revisit and check if it's important.

Wondering if this is a scope error, or me?

Perhaps it's a known issue too, related to the firmware saga?

By the way - the vendor only reloaded handbox firmware, so it's still the same new handbox hardware, as purchased.


Lastly ... Is this an ETX-90 problem only, or does it apply to other Meade scope firmware?


cheers

[AndrewJ]

Gday Chris
The Audiostar uses cut down equations of motion to calculate the positions of many things. It also doesnt do precession calculations, and as such what it reports will differ from a fully up to date phone/pc app that can use all the latest data and calculations.
Understood, there is nothing you can do re the hardware.
That said, there are big differences between some of the firmwares.
For not being able to select an ETX-90 correctly, yes, it only applies to the new units with the plugs in the fork.
As per the other thread, ( and as suggested by Meade ),selecting an ETX-80 will get the correct ratios so it points correctly, but thats just a cop out by Meade. They should have fixed it by now.
Andrew

[ninja2]

Doesn't that mean I [often] won't find a target? Those errors are too big IMO, so this could be a side effect of the firmware issue.

After reading up I'm now of two minds: Do I accept the firmware situation, do the fiddling and keep the scope, or do I return it? One reason I chose Meade is there long experience in the business and their reputation. I expected the ETX-90, havng been around quite a few years, would be a fully sorted and stable product. Wrong!

A troubling concern is I could load new firmware but come up against a bug further down the track that misleads or fools me. After all the main reason for this scope is to learn and enjoy. Fiddling with firmware on a brand new product is not enjoyment!

I assume you own an EXT90 Andrew? What firmware are you using? Do you have a list of those known "bugs" ?

cheers

[AndrewJ]

Gday Chris
If you get a good align, pretty much all targets should be in the FOV of a 26mm EP. Planets can vary a bit, but would normally be in the EP.
The selection of align stars and accuracy of centring them can have a big effect on accuracy.
One trick if you dont have a Xhair EP is to defocus quite a lot before aligning. The stars will look like big donuts, and it is much easier to centre this than a perfectly focussed star.
I basically stopped at A1F7 and this works pretty well, and a lot of the bugs have been patched out. Its been tested in the field for several years now, but if you load it, you will still need to select an ETX80 in order to get the right ratios.
Nope. ETX-125, LS-6" and LX200GPS 10"

Depends :-)
I have 2 x 497, 2 x 497EP and 2 x Audiostars.
I never really know what firmware i have loaded as it depends on what i am doing, but for stable work, i load A1F7 with the patches onto the Audiostars.



I have dozens of lists, as each firmware fixes some and removes others.
If you read the A1F7 patch file via StarPatch, it is broken into "bugfix" and "enhancement" sections. Just read the bugfix bits to see the major ones.

Andrew


PS To be fair, pretty much all mounts in this price class have some sort of bugs etc.

For normal grab and go viewing, they work well for their price, as long as you get the alignment done accurately.
I know of the Meade bugs in detail because i have been working with them for years, but other mounts arent 100% problem free.

[alval]

Hi Chris,
I’ve got an etx observer similar to yours but the larger 125 with the same firmware. I’ve had it over a year now and had issues to start as well. Mostly it was set up which does affect go to.
I’ve found the base has to be level use a small level across the base behind the forks not the bubble level. ( as useful as a hole in the bottom of a bucket)..
The compass is affected by metal, the small thumbscrew in the eyetube holder may affect it, remove it to see if the needle moves.
Make sure you have your site as your location accurately by gps and that the timezone is +930. Half an hour out is about 7 degrees as i found.
Enter accurate time at start up, ive got atomic clock app on my phone (free)
Yes train drives as others have said on a distant light pole or stobie they have horizontal and vertical aspects on them to move back to when aligning.
You can also train motors if you change power source or put in new batteries.
Everything adds up and it doesnt have to be out by much to miss targets.
Once working the views are great. Now if only these clouds would nick off!
Hope this helps
Al

[jakob]

I used to own an ETX 105.
I found that after re-calibrating the Compass to true north the Scope performed well.
To do that I had to remove the Battery and trained it to Sigma Oct.
Regards J.

[ninja2]

Thanks everyone for all the excellent info and suggestions. I'm distracted by one of my other hobby projects at the mo', but will soon be back onto the scope "project" to sort out my firmware following AndrewJ's inputs, then do training etc.

Using a spirit level sounds sensible too. I reckon that would be done along the horizontal direction between the forks (i.e. E-W when OTA facing N)

I'm sure I'll have more questions so not doubt soon i'll be back here with more queries .... knowledge is power! :)

[ninja2]

I just tried to connect my ETX-90 to my PC but Audiostar will not connect.

I don't have an RS232 port on my PC so I purchased the Meade 07507 USB-Serial cable, but later saw on this Meade web page (https://www.meade.com/support/software-firmware/) that it is the earlier version (with the mid-cable lump) that will not work with Win10. So I put it aside and purchased a plain old USB-RS232 cable from local MSY Technology store.

When I connect the Audiostar handbox to the PC a new port appears in Device Manager > Ports as "Prolific USB-to-Serial Port (COM3)" although it has the dreaded yellow exclamation mark. I've installed the Prolific driver downloaded from Meade. I 've installed Autostar Suite and told it to use COM3.

But when I choose Telescope > Protocal > Autostar via Serial Port (F6) I an error box pops up with "Can't open COM3 : GetLastError returned 2".

As mentioned I'm using the Meade #505 cable set, but not the newer version of the Meade 07507 cable. I see one for sale on eBay (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Meade-USB-to-RS-232-USB-Bridge-Cable-07507/112546764097?epid=16019806824&hash=item1a344f5541:g:FgQAAOSwoR9aB i~O) but it's from USA and will take a few weeks.

Any suggestions appreciated! In particular do I need to fork out for the newer Meade cable, or should a common USB-RS232 cable do? If yes, is there an Australian supplier of these (my Google Search showed none)?

thanks

[redbeard]

Hi Chris,

Uninstall the driver you downloaded from Meade and use the driver that came with your USB to RS232 cable.

You don't need the Meade USB to RS232 adapter as I'm guessing that it's just an expensive version plus postage of the one you bought from MSY.

Cheers,
Damien.

[AndrewJ]

Gday Chris
Any USB2rs232 converter will work for connecting, as long as you have a correctly wired 505 cable set, and the converters drivers work.


Many people have reported problems with Prolific based converters and W10. Using old drivers fixes this in many cases.
Prolific actually have a chip checking utility on their website that will confirm if the chipset you have will work with W10.

FTDI based usb2ser converters seem to be more robust than most
but using older prolific drivers may make your current unit work.
Lots of threads on this problem exist on the Meade scope based websites.
Its just a result of USB2Ser converter manufacturers not obeying the rules, as there are many counterfeit chips out there.



Andrew

[alval]

Hi Chris and AndrewJ

This discussion about reverting to older versions of more stable software for the newer etx has me thinking. I have an etx 125 observer A3S5 firmware.
I have recently opened up the etx, (as you do when you’re bored and I took pictures). The drives seem substantionally bigger than the older models from what i can tell so the gear ratios probably have changed. Would you need to change the alt/ratios in the telescope model settings to the current ones in the newer firmware manually to track correctly? as the older firmware wouldn’t have taken this change into account.

Alan

Sorry if i posted twice issues with fat fingers and ipads.

[AndrewJ]

Gday Alan

Not true without piccies :-)



Not that i can tell from the firmware.
The lates ETX-90 ratios have changed back to the very earliest values, but the 125 has only had one value across all firmwares.

Dunno.

I havent heard any problems re the 125s ( and i get sent lots of bug reports privately ).
If it aligns and tracks, then its OK.
The new ETX-90s running on the wrong ratios simply did not work.
If its wrong, it is very evident.
Andrew

[alval]

Hey Andrew

This is the dec drive. The gear is about 82mm in diameter and the worm is about 13mm from what i recall. The RA drive is slightly larger. Got other photos but have to reduce their size to up load it seems.

Cheers Alan

[AndrewJ]

Gday Alan
That is VERY different to the older models.
The much larger dia wormwheel wil make it much more stable than the old units that had a tiny wormwheel.

At a rough count, the wormwheel has 78 teeth ( vs the 60 for a std ETX125), but the gearbox is also very different.
Would need to count all the teeth in the geartrain to see how they re engineered it to give the same final ratio.
Again, if it aligns and points well, then the ratios are correct, so its more likely they changed a few gear teeth counts to keep it the same.
Andrew
so what does the RA look like

[alval]

RA from top

[alval]

Side view

[AndrewJ]

Gday Alan
Gotta say it looks a lot more solid than i was expecting :-)
Quite a "disassy" exercise you have gone through



Andrew

[alval]

Hi Andrew

Must say sorry to Chris first for hijacking the thread.
Yes well it was interesting exercise but was actually quite easy nothing too hard. It is well designed and with well made castings and parts, the only thing that let it down were the assemblers and quality control. I searched for these sort of pictures before I bought it but couldnt find any, lots on the earlier ones. I think I’ll get organised and start a new thread with all the pics so it will come up easier if anyone else is interested pointing out differences and issues. Overall now its sweet finds and tracks objects well once set up correctly. Centred mars in alt/az as it was rising over my shed, went in for tea, watched tv for bit went out over an hour and half later and it was still well in field of view of 20mm eyepice. I’m happy with that.

Cheers Alan

[AndrewJ]

Gday Alan

Yes and no. Lots of people have reported tracking/goto problems with the new ETX90 and A4S1 firmware, so a general thread on it that includes the new 125s as well may prove useful to others in the future.



Thats a BIG change compared to the ETX125PE which is a mongrel to work with. Even to fix the power panel requires a complete base disassy.


It also "looks" more robust than the older ones, and i must admit i was expecting something much flimsier.
I must say i was also expecting it to have different ratios as well, but in your case it would appear the new gearbox takes into account the changed wormwheel.
All good.


Andrew

[ninja2]

No problems with hijacking my thread Alan .. it's all useful for me!



Thanks for the clues Redbeard, and AndrewJ. However I'm trying to replace the Prolific drive but Windows keeps insisting it be the Prolific driver. Even if I choose "Uninstall Device" In Device Manager, then Restart.

When I choose "Update Driver" and browse to the directory of the driver I want, Windows ignores me and says " the best driver is already installed". grrrrr!

I also tried installing by picking the ftdiport.inf file and "Install". This seemed to work, but made no difference in device manager. I did same with ftdibus.inf, but same result.

I tried driver that came with the cable, but no luck. These were for Windows 7, so also went to FDTI driver site (http://www.ftdichip.com/Drivers/VCP.htm) and downloaded latest for Win 10. Same result .... cannot convince Windows to use it.

Any clues on how to get around this ?

[AndrewJ]

Gday Chris
Why are you using FTDI drivers if the adapter is reporting it is a Prolific?
Have you tried the prolific driver checker app????
http://www.prolific.com.tw/US/ShowProduct.aspx?p_id=225&pcid=41
Andrew

[ninja2]

Gday Andrew,

Well I could try and explain, but it'd be a bit it pointless ... :-) so I'll just cut to the chase instead ...

I just downloaded and ran that Prolific chip checker but it could not connect.

BUT THEN I noticed the WARNING in red on that Prolific site:

Warning Notice:
Please be warned that counterfeit (fake) PL-2303HX (Chip Rev A) USB to Serial Controller ICs using Prolific's trademark logo, brandname, and device drivers, were being sold in the China market. Counterfeit IC products show exactly the same outside chip markings but generally are of poor quality and causes Windows driver compatibility issues (Yellow Mark Error Code 10 in Device Manager). We issue this warning to all our customers and consumers to avoid confusion and false purchase.

As shown in attached I'm seeing Code 10 in the Device Manager!
It seems my friends at MSY have sold me a cheap cable alright.
So I've just ordered this one: here at eBay (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/USB-to-9-pin-DB9-RS232-Serial-Cable-Adapter-Converter-Win10-Win8-Win7-32-64bit/321180095957?hash=item4ac7d355d5%3A g%3AE34AAOSwef9a8Rza&_sacat=0&_nkw=Adapter+USB+to+Serial&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313.TR3.TRC 2.A0.H0.XAdapter+USB+to+Serial.TRS0 )

Only two dud cables so far ... :mad2:

many thanks for your help again Andrew ...

cheers

[AndrewJ]

Gday Chris
Although you get Code10, it doesnt always mean its a counterfeit chip, just a dud driver.
Google "prolific 2303 code 10" for lots of info
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-hardware/prolific-usb-to-serial-comm-port-windows-10/0a4f8e48-7135-4434-9d10-349c9ce87fcf?auth=1
is interesting



I wont touch W10 "just because", but lots of reports have come in that the latest prolific drivers dont always work under W10 and you need to use old drivers.


FTDI based chips dont seem to suffer as badly.

Andrew

[ninja2]

Ah OK. I'll look at that info a bit later ...

Are Prolific a manufacturer of USB interface chips, like FTDI are?

The cables I see advertised don't mention which brand of interface chip they are using. Wondering how I would find an FTDI based chip.

Hang on, I just remembered I use an FTDI adapter in some of my Arduino projects and they work. hmmmm...

[AndrewJ]

Gday Chris

Yep

They will 99% be USB to TTL converters, ie not suitable for the 497 handbox, as they use different voltage levels.
ie the Arduino chip will probably be 0-3.3 or 0-5V, whereas a true rs232 chip uses ( approx ) +/-10V



Andrew

[redbeard]

Hi Chris,

As Andrew has mentioned, try using an older driver. I have had to do this exact thing as I had one of those counterfeit chips, (or so I assumed), and the new drivers did not work but I eventually found some older ones that did work.

I have found the Jaycar USB to RS232 cables always seem to work and if they don't, Jaycar will always accept returns. Bit more pricey though.

If using an Arduino to connect to non TTL devices, you could use a MAX232 chip or equivalent to get the correct voltage levels.

Oh and also, after you have uninstalled the old driver, unplug the cable from the USB port and install the next driver with the cable unplugged. Then when you plug in the cable, hopefully the driver will see the hardware and all OK, hopefully!

Cheers,

Damien.

[ninja2]

Success! Thanks for the Jaycar clue redbeard, although your warning on cost was all too true ... $29.95 for a USB-RS232 cable ... a bit ridiculous (although I did get a $9 refund when I took the MSY cable back)

Anyway finally I'm connected, now onto the next issue... :)

Being completely unfamiliar with Autostar Suite I was trying to work out how to test the comms. When I noticed "Downloading, do not turn off" on the Handbox screen. haha, it's probably reinstalling A4S1 over my A3S5, great :lol: :mad2:

I am planning to load A1F7 (based on Andrew's earlier post) but I need some pointers on how to do this. I have Autostar Suite V5.53 installed and started looking in the manual but there's a lot to absorb. Is there a better reference focussed on loading a different firmware into the handbox?

For example one the StarGPS downloads site (http://www.stargps.ca/downloads.htm) I see 'BuildAUA1F7.rom recommended' one the right, and a number of related Patches on the left. I'm guessing I download just the .rom file to the Autostar Updater library ... somehow?

Also, is there a simple test string that I can send to the handbox using Telescope > Test Serial in Autostar Suite, to verify good comms in future?

TIA

[ninja2]

hmmmm ... still downloading after 2 hours?? The user manual says:

'.... and checks your telescope. The versions of the software that were found then display in a dialog box, including the revision level of the software in your telescope. Follow the prompts in the dialog boxes to complete the operation'.

I saw none of this, and certainly no dialogue box. Still says I must not turn off. When should i pull the plug?

My Autostar Update window lists nothing at present ... see attached snapshot.

[ninja2]

I fear I may be about to exceed my novice posts limit !

Gave up and turned scope off. Started up OK, still with A3S5 installed. phew!

Retrieved object data from Handset and can see them listed in right AU window OK, so Comms seems OK.

Still looking for guidance on loading new firmware ?

[AndrewJ]

Gday Chris
More likely 5CE2, which is what it used to do.
If that had happened, your handbox would have been semi toast :-)

StarPatch and my PEC editor totally replace Meades ASSuite and ASU when it comes to loading firmware or Tours etc to Audiostars.

To do firmware loading
you download and install the StarPatch loader utility
you download the rom "BuildAUA1F7.rom"
and the patch "PatchAUA1F7v03.spf"
into the StarPatch directory
You start StarPatch, then select the COM Port and handset type

You then use the dropdown box to select the *.spf file.
You will be presented with a default list of patch selections.
Unselect the StarGPS options at the top ( as you dont have a StarGPS lump )

You can chop and change the rest as required, but the defaults are a good start.
Hit go and it will load. ( And you get a proper progress bar )

If you want to edit/add Tours etc, you will need to use my PEC editor, as Meades ASU completely screws it up for the new memory models used in the 497EP and Audiostar handboxes. My app has full help file on how to do it.
You can also use my app as a means to detect if a Meade style scope is attached, as it has an autodetect function built in.

Andrew

[ninja2]

Lost a few weeks on major family issues, but almost back to normal now.


In the StarGPS "About Us" section I see Andrew Johansen mentioned as one of the designers ... I guess that's you AndrewJ ? :)


So it seems I need to buy the StarPatch software tool for US$79.

Not sure if I need to consider the PEC editor yet, but if so where do I find it?

[redbeard]

Hi Chris,

Download the trial version - free for updating. It works well.

From the site...
9. Free trial version is a great tool for updating your Autostar 497/497EP, Audiostar or Autostar II.

http://www.stargps.ca/manual.htm#starpatch

Andrews PEC Editor - http://members.optusnet.com.au/johansea/

By the way, Andrew is the guru when it comes to Meades.

Cheers,
Damien.

[ninja2]

thanks Damien, I'll give that a go.



yes I'd figured as much, from the quality of his inputs as this thread expanded :)

[AndrewJ]

Thats me :P but im not the designer of the StarPatch firmware loader, or the StarGPS lump, i just helped the author in integrating it into the basic Meade firmware.

As noted by RedBeard, the firmware uploader is freeware, but is knobbled in that it only runs at 9600 baud. A fully functional version can do firmware updates in a few seconds, but for 99% of users, that is not a requirement.

My PEC editor is merely a diagnostic tool to allow you to update data and see what settings you currently have in your handbox.
It is basically useless for general browsing or rubbrernecking:D
Andrew

[ninja2]

I'm running the trial version of StarPatch (1.912) and following Andrew's instructions for the full version:



But the drop down does not list the rom of spf files, even though they are in the StarPatch directory (C:\Program Files (x86)\StarPatch). So i can't select them .... grrrrr! The attached photo shows the problem

The handset type is "Autostar #495 or #497" (what is a 497EP?)
The COM port is correct (COM7)
SmarLoad is ticked (default)

The baud rate default is 115200. Do I need to reduce it to 9600 as mentioned, or will it do that automatically?



So which program is "my app" referred to here?

[AndrewJ]

Gday Chris
Earlier you posted

As such you have an Audiostar, and must select that handbox type.
StarPatch now has a lot of smarts in it to prevent cross loading firmware, and selecting the correct handbox is the first part of that.
The 497s use a motorola CPU
The 497EP was an intermediate handbox that came out with a new Toshiba processor, and only lasted a year or so.
The Audiostar is a 497EP with an added daughterboard for sound.
There are also 2 versions of Audiostar, as Meade changed the memory chips used part way through.

Sooooooooo, pick Hbx type "Audiostar" and the patches etc will become visible.

My PEC editor
http://members.optusnet.com.au/johansea/


Andrew


PS IIRC, it will autoset the baud and smartload to 9600/off automatically

as the higher bauds and smartload are only available in the full version.
It may auto set the baud to fast for a short while,

( to show what it can do ), then throttle back,
but other than that, is fully functional in free mode.

[ninja2]

Ah OK, thanks. With Audiostar selected the pull down list looks correct now. My bad, I thought my (new) handset was just a #497. Now I know its the 497EP

In your posted instructions you say to select the spf. But what about the rom file - does it need to be uploaded into Audiostar first, and then follow with the spf patch?

Or maybe I'm simply misunderstanding what the rom file does ... !

thanks again

[AndrewJ]

Gday Chris

Nope, it is an Audiostar. Different beastie.

No. The rom file is the raw Meade file. The spf file effectively grabs the rom file, then edits it to apply the changes so it can be uploaded.
Andrew

[ninja2]

Well I just tried to update the handset and it failed again. This is starting to bug me!

When I insert the Jaycar USB-RS232 cable into the PC my Device Manager lists the new port as "Prolific USB-to-Serial Comm Port (COM7)"

Then, after the ETX-90 has been powered up, I connect the Meade cable into the Audiostar. Next I start StarPatch, and set the port to COM7 via Options, and select the Audiostar handset.

Then I selected the spf via the pull-down list, and unticked the 4 or 5 items at top to do with GPS, leaving all the rest as they are.

All good so far. But when I hit the Update Handset button nothing happens for a short while, then StarPatch issues a comms failure message appears :mad2: (see attached).

I repeated all the above usiong COM5 instead, and even a PC reboot. same result. Grrrrr ...

Perhaps I need a different driver, or I've damaged the connection cable somehow? It did work a couple of weeks ago when I was playing with Autostar Updater, but even that doesn't work now.

BTW when the Audiostar is powered on it displays:

497EP A3S5
AUDIOSTAR

[redbeard]

Hi Chris,

It sounds like the USB to serial adapter is working fine which means the driver for it must also be working fine. If unsure, can you test another RS232 device to see if it works or do a loopback test? If it works, then you will be able to rule out the USB to serial adapter totally and focus on just the other bits. I'd check the other cable thoroughly. ;)

I'm assuming that when you selected com 5, you plugged the USB adapter into another USB slot on the computer and the device manager showed com 5?

Cheers,
Damien.

[AndrewJ]

Gday Chris
As Redbeard mentioned, try another app.
My PEC editor will try all 256 possible ports to find COM devices.
It will then test all detected units at all possible baud rates
to see if it can find a Meade.
See if that can connect.
Andrew

[ninja2]

I ran Andrew's PEC editor and it tested all existing ports at all baud, but it stilll would not connect to the scope.

I have quite a lot of electronics stuff here, but none of it's RS232 any more! So can't see a way to try Damiens idea, which would be much better than my remaining options:
- fault in Jaycar RS232 cable
- fault in Meade serial cable
- fault in the scope

I have a qestion about powering on and connecting, because I'm wondering if I could have damaged any of the above by getting the sequence wrong.

Normally I would turn the scope on first. (I've been running it indoors powered from mains through a adapter with 12V output. The scope also has full set [9V] of AA batteries installed).

Next I would connect the Jaycar USB-RS232 cable to computer only to start with, and check it is recognised by Device Manager. Then I connect the Meade cable between the Jaycar cable and the scope.

Then I would run the app on the computer. Keep in mind that I did achieve connection using Autostart suite when I first tried this, a few weeks ago.

Powering down would normally be just the reverse sequence.

However, a week or so ago I powered the scope off before disconnecting the cable. I remember at the time the power LED on the scope was still glowing , at maybe 50% dimmed. I didn't like this, and quickly powered the scope off. This may have been the moment when damage was done.

Questions:

1) Should the sequence matter?

2) does the Meade RS232 serial cable have any smarts in it, or is it just wires?

3) Is damage to the serial port a common ccurrence for these scopes?

I'm prepared to buy a replacement jaycar cable if need be (only $30 !), but it would be v.annoying if that makes no diff

TIA


PS: a totally different issue: does anyone else find they have to re-edit their freshly authored posts on this IIS forum, to remove spurious excess line feeds auto-inserted by the editor while you're not looking !?? (like the extra line, not inserted by me, just above this paragraph)

[redbeard]

Hi Chris,



This simple test will determine if the Jaycar cable works:

The test only involves the PC and the Jaycar USB to RS232 cable.

Do a looback test on the Jaycar USB to RS232 cable. Do this by shorting out pins 2 and 3 on the DB9 end of the cable.
Download Hercules software: https://www.hw-group.com/software/hercules-setup-utility 3.2.8. Or use another program you are familiar with.
Use Hercules to send some text in Serial tab mode, and if it receives it, all is fine with the Jaycar cable and you can move on to the next bit. It does sound like this cable is working.

You can also hook up 2 PC's together if you have another USB/RS232 cable and PC and test that way.

Another test would be to plug the USB adapter into your PC, then plug the other cable into the adapter but NOT into the scope. Then do the same loopback test by shorting out the correct pins on the end of the cable. That way if you get a text response, you know both cables are working fine and all that is left is to check is the connections to the scope are correct. If so, then you have tested everything up to the scope and will know what works and what does not..




1) Should the sequence matter?

In relation to plugging things in, always connect everything before turning power on to anything. That is the safest way. To my knowledge, Meades don't have a lot of electronic protection circuits.


2) does the Meade RS232 serial cable have any smarts in it, or is it just wires?

Just wires. The Jaycar USB to RS232 adapter does all the work/drivers etc.
The cable that connects between the scope and the adapter is just wires, wired correctly for pin connections.


3) Is damage to the serial port a common occurrence for these scopes?

Not sure how common but when I first got my Meade, I was visual only but when I decided to go astrophotography and start plugging things in to the ports, I had no RS232 comms. My guess is a previous owner somehow did something to damage the RS232 chip(s) on the controller board. I pulled the controller board out, replaced the little SMD RS232 chips and luckily all worked fine afterwards. I still have a few of those chips if it turns out you need any. Will have to verify that it's the same chip for your scope, (size type etc).


You mentioned that the adapter to Meade scope cable worked at one stage, could anything have happened to that cable to damage it?
Have you re inspected that cable and ensured that all connector pins are good and that it is wired correctly, (it should as you have had it working).

Make a new cable?

Use a multimeter etc if need be.


Cheers,
Damien

[redbeard]

Hi Chris,



Not sure what you mean by the above statement as you quote turning the scope off and then turning the scope off, can you re explain.

Cheers,
Damien

[ninja2]

sorry, brain faded as I wrote that!

I meant that after scope was turned off the LED still glowed but dimmer due to current coming down the serial cable from PC. So then I unplugged the cable and the LED went out.

[redbeard]

Ah, cheers, that makes sense now.

On my scope that doesn't happen, with the RS232 lead connected to the PC, the LED on the scope only comes on when the power switch is turned on with the scope connected to its power supply.

It sounds a little odd but not knowing the wiring and circuit on your scope it may be normal.

Have you noticed the LED doing that before when the cable was working?

Cheers,
Damien.

[AndrewJ]

Gday Chris
There is no way i can think of that anything associated with the rs232 cable could affect the power LED. There are only 3 connected wires in the rs232 cable and they are Tx/Rx and ground, so no idea where any power comes from.
As Damien noted, try doing a loopback test on the adapter by itself then adapter + cable to see what happens there.
My PEC editor allows you to send and receive data
so you can use it to do the test if you want.
If that works, try connecting to the mount when it has no power cable connected ( ie batteries only )

Andrew

[ninja2]

Thanks again for all the suggestions. I'll give those I can a go over coming week, and if that doesnt resolve I'll drop by the vendor again and see if he can still connect to the scope. He did that successfully once before, so it would be a conclusive test.

[ninja2]

I dug up a matching DB-9 connector in one of my ancient spares boxes :) and did this test on the Jaycar cable. Your intuition has been proven right redbeard, I think. Just to be sure can you check the snapshot attached of my Hercules outputs. Does text appearing twice and in different colours mean its working? As you can see I couldn't get it to respond to CR/LF hex codes, but maybe this doesn't matter.

Meanwhile I'll try and extend the loopback test to include the Meade serial cable (#505 from memory)

[redbeard]

Hi Chris,

Yep, you got it working! Looks good. Pink is the echo text, black is the return data text. If you disconnect the DB9 then only one string should show.

With Hercules,
If you hover the mouse over the text fields, you get little help tips. Also, right click on the main text area for more options.

Hex codes are sent in hex format. The hex tick box is to let the program know it is sending hex. It's does not convert decimal to hex. eg: space between chars too: FF D2 A7


You can change how the hex data is returned by the 'special chars' option in the menu. Have a play but not important for the testing.

Cheers,
Damien.

[redbeard]

Hi Chris,

Any progress?

We are still here to help if need be.

Cheers,
Damien.

[ninja2]

Hi Damien, The delay is partly because this is not my favourite project at the moment, but mainly because I'm waiting for a certain person at the vendor to return from leave. He did my firmware revision discussed earlier in this thread, plus he's the only one at the store who know how to connect to the telescope. So it will be another week or so before I know if the telescope comms have indeed developed a fault ... that is my suspicion.
cheers

[redbeard]

Ha ha, all good,

I totally understand, I have many hobbies and they are all wanting all of my time. My latest is working on a way to get 32 hours out of 1 day! Although, I think I will need more than an Arduino for that, lol.

Cheers,
Damien.

[XType2001]

Hi Ninja2, I'm a newbie and experiencing similar ETX90/ Starpatch downloading issues thru Ser232/USB connection. Did you ever fix completely?
Where would I find the "Older Drivers" (apart from the retirement village at the end of my street!)

[ninja2]

Gudday XType2001/Tom,

I've been getting great inputs and guidance from people in the know since starting this thread, so if you read the rest of this thread you'll probably get the answers you need.

Although in the last bunch of posts I'm dealing with hardware issue that may not apply to you. But before that I did have the comms working using the Jaycar cable, albeit briefly

cheers

PS: as an "older driver" I get inspiration from my motto: "the older I get, the faster I was ... :)"

[XType2001]

Just to update on my non-functioning cable issue from before..well it is all resolved now due to using the proper Meade RS232/USB adaptor and #505 connector kit.
Last night I was able to update the handbox with the StarPatch software (http://www.astronomyforum.net/wiki/Software) after weeks of trying with inferior cables bought through Ebay.

Luckily the suppliers gave me refunds, but I found it best to use the proper OEM kit from Meade even though it is more expensive.
I also bought a SkyWatcher (http://www.astronomyforum.net/wiki/SkyWatcher) 7Ah power tank as opposed to rigging up a car jump starter, was more comfortable using something specifically for a telescope (http://www.astronomyforum.net/wiki/Telescope) but more more expensive at $189.

Anyhow its all going well now, just need clear & dark skies!