Down an NBN black hole

[Paul Haese]

Here is an amusing tale of how the NBN is being "efficiently" rolled out.

In 2014 I saw NBN techs walking around the area and doing inspections of the Telstra pits. I spoke with one of them at length about build time etc and he seemed to think it would be 12-18 months from time of commencement to accessing the NBN. About 3 months later I noted that NBN had commenced in our area. In fact by the end of that year nodes started appearing. By the end of 2015 all work had ceased and nodes were installed. One is just a mere 150 metres from our home. I made my first enquiry after the map showed the NBN was available. I was promptly told it was not available but I said the map showed that it was. We were even contacted by TPG to say we had NBN available.

I rang and had a conversation with an NBN consultant and he said NBN should be completed by the end of 2016 and after I said that the NBN map was actually misleading and deceptive, it went back to being build commenced and it has stayed that way since.

Well it is now approaching the end of 2017 and surprise, surprise still no NBN and when you look on the map it does not even have a date at which the NBN should be completed. I think we have fallen down an NBN black hole and never going to get it completed. Even contacting NBN just fails to get a response now. No wonder they have so many complaints. How about fully completing an area before moving on to the next?

Amusingly, by remote site has had NBN fixed wifi for 2 years. I might have to move down there.

[Nikolas]

Unfortunately people voted for this internet scheme (LNP) amongst other things, they reap what they sow.

[Paul Haese]

Actually I am not complaining about the scheme, and my point is not political; it is the way it is being rolled out, that is my complaint.

[Wilso]

Yeah I'm in the same boat.
Received a letter from NBN co in FEB saying it's ready for connecting but when you call the telecommunications co they say it's not ready for connection yet.
:screwy::screwy::screwy:

[Visionary]

Yes, the LNP floated the idea of the NBN. The LNP rolled out the NBN. The LNP shooks the hands of those first connected with the NBN.

Yes, this is all the LNP's fault, everything about the NBN was the LNP's doing, the ALP had nothing to do with the NBN.

O' yes, the Easter Bunny is making Sant's deliveries this Christmas.

[LewisM]

Here's my NBN map.

Shame I cannot upload our ADSL map - it'd almost be the same blank map (still getting 6 Mbps - made me laugh the ABC story where the Doctor was complaining he only gets 16 Mbps...joker...). Can't even get ADSL 2 or 2+ here...stuck on ADSl 1... until NBN strikes... some year...

We get on average 20 drop outs a day - that's Wifi or hard-wired, AND Mobile reception...

[luka]

I usually don't get into political discussions (and this is not a forum for political discussions) but while ALP started the NBN, LNP took over after winning the election in 2013 and significantly modified the project. We will never know what may have been if ALP won the 2013 election but look who took over. It was Tony Abbot ordering Turnbull to "demolish" NBN. It was LNP who degraded it from fiber to rotten copper as it was cheaper (and let's not talk about cost blowouts). It is LNP and LNP-run nbn co who even today claim that NBN is fast enough and good enough... and you can see how good it is by the number of people complaining, even on this forum.

NBN has unfortunately become a political issue. It was supposed to be a superhighway to internet but it got ruined by ideology. ALP may have started the mess but LNP had control over it for the past 4 years. I am not trying to defend or blame anybody but LNP had 4 long years to make it good...

And now back to :astron:

[marc4darkskies]

Totally agree that NBN is a bad joke!!



LUXURY!! We've been dealing with 2.8Mbps forever on ADSL 2 in our area (Grose Vale = Sydney metro area). FTTN will be available in the new year but we won't be here. We're moving south to rural Goulburn with satellite NBN. I.e. 5 to 25Mbps and I'm almost certain it will be less than 10 most of the time. We don't stream so that speed will still be a boon for us though! :shrug: Hopefully there won't be TOO many dropouts!!!

[strongmanmike]

On extremely good authority, I can confirm categorically that the mess the NBN is currently in, is mostly to do with the change of government in 2013 and the ensuing politically motivated misguided and ludicrous new approaches taken and decisions made, after that.

Sorry but even if you don't want to hear that or deny it anyway, that is the reality, so any political complaining around the NBN can really only be directed at them, not doing so is completely blinkered.

Luckily, I have fibre all the way into my wardrobe and enjoy pretty good NBN connection :)

Mike

[AstralTraveller]

Paul,

A friend in Orange has a similar story. Somehow his street at the end of a new subdivision was the only place missed in Orange. After over a year of hassling about he now has optical fibre outside his house. However getting it that last 5m will now not happen until March. Or at least that's the theory: numerous calls to NBN customer service has confirmed, almost in so many words, that they have no idea what is going on. With this lot in charge we would all be stone cold sober in that proverbial brewery.

[AstralTraveller]

And what are you watching in the wardrobe?? :face:

[Larryp]

I the NBN was ever a good idea and a valid business proposition, The telcos would have built it themselves.

[multiweb]

Well NETFLIX is loving it. They came, they saw and they netted USD billions this year? All the talk about making OZ competitive etc... went right out of the window when the whole network got clogged with junk from day one. :lol:

[LewisM]

He's watching all the Julia Gillard p0rn while he can, before the AFP shut down that sick, twisted p0rn ring. :P :) :P :) Operation Welsh Ranga Roundup 2017.

One wonders if "Brown Paper Bag Julia" will ever get indicted for all the corrupt deals she made whilst PM. (I guess brown paper bag has dual meanings in her case :rofl:)

[Visionary]

Exactly!

[strongmanmike]

Lewis Trump :thumbsup:

[strongmanmike]

Microwaves....:face:

[LewisM]

Be careful - it'll make you glow in the dark and causes muscle wasting :eyepop::eyepop::eyepop::eyepop:

We get enough of that from Black Mountain...(just go up and read all the warning signs :lol:)

I hope you don't go to the Black Mountain carpark after dark Mike :lol: :lol:

[LewisM]

I am gonna build a wall around Wallaroo (then it will be Wall-aroo).

Keep all those pesky italian musclemen contained :P

[AstralTraveller]

You can see the CMB from your wardrobe?

[luka]

Actually before NBN faster internet (than ADSL) was already being deployed in higher populated areas. Cable, fibre, wireless... Telcos were already building various forms of fast internet but only where it was making money. And that is the catch.

Australia is a large country with lots of low-density population areas. The "industry will do it" approach does not work as the remote areas will never be profitable unless telcos can charge ridiculous amounts that nobody can afford.

If it was up to telcos the remote areas would probably still be waiting for landlines :lol:

[Paul Haese]

I didn't actually mean for this to be about an ideological debate about the two major parties in Australia. My main interest was the rollout issues where people are being missed.

As a matter of interest most people appear to be assuming the drop in speeds attainable is with node technology and copper line. However, as I understand it, the main problem with slow downs at peak times relates almost entirely to backhaul. Providers are supposed to buy enough backhaul to allow for the peak times. Without enough backhaul there becomes a bottle neck and that causes slow downs. Most providers are not buying enough backhaul and therefore cannot deliver on their promises. You can read all about backhaul and its effects on Whirlpool forums and on the NBN site.

[Exfso]

That is correct Paul, providers are promising the world at ridiculous prices to connect as many as possible, and all this without providing anywhere near adequate backhaul to cover the customer base, let alone during peak periods. IINet are a classic, I was signed up for a 100/40 connection and off peak was getting around 95/37,(am only 150metres from node), but come 7pm till around 11pm I got speeds approaching dial up, eg 3/.6. I contacted them and they said they had improved their backhaul, but it was a blatant untruth as it showed zero signs of improvement. I eventually go TIO involved and my contract was cancelled with no fines imposed. I am now with a very reputable company that will not sign any more people than there backhaul will allow in peak times. They constantly monitor it and if speeds start to drop, they almost immediately add more and the speeds improve to that of non peak periods. Whats more they are an Australian company run from Victoria and there is virtually no waiting time to contact them, and all their operators speak Australian English to boot:P
As far as NBN goes, their bloody techs are useless, I had 11 visits and it was only on the final visit that an ex-Telstra tech found what was causing my dropouts, he said he spent most of his time chasing the stuff-ups that the majority of the techs caused/did not fix. In my case it was a faulty line from my home J/box to the pole out front, he diagnosed a high resistance, removed the cable and replaced and no dropouts since. All upstream and downstream very stable. But 90% of the guys that came out refused to listen to my reasons and all went through the same process which did zip. One of the techs spent an hour talking to Bloody India of all places to try to find my problem then came up with the gem that this so called guru in India had diagnosed I had RF interference and needed to move/replace my modem:shrug: Yeah right:screwy:
It is one thing to provide us with an inferior system, but to add insult to injury by having incompetent techs sent out to fault find, is just not on.
It is Friday night and obviously still very busy, but as you can see from my latency that there are quite a few users on my node, but the speeds are excellent. My normal latency during non peak periods is around 5ms, currently 22ms.

[Tropo-Bob]

The original Board of the NBN consisted of people with no technical knowledge of the telecommunications or IT Industry.

This was because of a CRAZY, Crazy Idea going around that the best way to take business to a higher level was to bring in people that were not weighed down by past-knowledge (considered to limitations) of what was (not) possible. It was the Australian-business version of "Draining the Swamp".

Thus the NBN was off to a bad start and because of political rhetoric, it has never been able to get back on track.

[doppler]

Finally the ACCC is getting some results.

https://www.dailymercury.com.au/news/telstra-offers-to-refund-customers-for-slow-nation/3259884/

[FlashDrive]

Wanker.....I just want my NBN fixed .......:tasdevil:

[LewisM]

Telstra FINALLY acknowledges our complaint, but of course, only after my complaint to the TIO. 20 to 30 drop outs/time outs a day.

I was told there would be compensation of the financial kind at least.

I just don't fathom how people claim they can't watch Netflix and moan like babies on their 25MB/s plus connections, which they complain as "slow", yet we can stream Netflix in high def on a 6MB/s connection no problem - buffering - (well, until it drops out anyway). Must be nice to get 25MB/s...the "slow" NBN... :lol:

[julianh72]

Plenty of people are PAYING for 25 Mbps (or faster) NBN connections, but they aren't actually GETTING 25 Mbps (especially in peak periods, which is when most people sit down to watch Netflix).

E.g. look at Exfso's post from 20 October:
I was signed up for a 100/40 connection and off peak was getting around 95/37,(am only 150metres from node), but come 7pm till around 11pm I got speeds approaching dial up, eg 3/.6.
Try watching Netflix HD on THAT sort of connection!

[LewisM]

Our is 6/0.3 at non-peak times and yes, can and do watch Netflix at full res (buffers in low res for about 2 minutes max).

Paying $90 a month for THAT...and that's when the speed is GOOD (other times, as I said, the connection times out or drops out)

[LewisM]

Here you go - totally non-peak period (there are 20 houses in our area total, as we are a former RAAF base. (and no, the Defence infrastructure around us use their OWN fibre network, which sadly we can't join :) It is terabytes per second lol).

Fast ain't it. You need to see it when it's "peak" lol.

So, when all these people moan about their speeds, which are invariably always faster than ours, I just smile...

[dpastern]

nah, the telcos would never have built it themselves. ADSL was perfectly fine as far as they were concerned.

Also, the less we have Telstra controlling, the better. Telstra is the direct reason why Internet has sucked for so many years in Australia.

Onto the NBN - been on NBN FTTH since January 2017, very underwhelming, at least with the service provided by Optus. The potential great speeds are hammered by Optus not providing adequate backhaul. I've seen speeds as worse as 6/18 (down/up) on a 50/20 connection, with both Optus and the Internet Ombudsman telling me that this was perfectly AOK. There's a reason why I have ZERO respect for the Internet Ombudsman and others of their ilk. The do not serve to protect consumers, but to protect business instead, at the cost of consumers.

If the government is serious about providing Australians with a better Internet infrastructure - they need to legislatively force ISPs/RSPs to have sufficient backhaul in place at all times.

Dave

PS I spent 8 years working for an ISP. And not as a crappy "Telstra or Optus tech" who knows jack squat diddly SFA either.

[julianh72]

The point is not whether one person's 3 Mbps at peak hours is better or worse than another person's 7 Mbps in off-peak times. The point is that we as a nation are spending in excess of $50 billion on the NBN, and we all darn well ought to be getting a LOT more than that!

Remember when Abbott and Turnbull won the 2013 election on their mantra of "faster, cheaper, more affordable", the promise was that everybody would have at least 25 Mbps by the end of 2016 (promise well and truly broken), and 90% would have at least 50 Mbps by 2019 (extremely unlikely to be achieved - especially since the current NBN plan is for deployment to be completed by the end of 2020).

The simple fact is that the MTM is not physically capable of achieving these speeds in many cases, it is much more expensive to operate and maintain than fibre, and it isn't actually being deployed any cheaper or significantly faster than the previous FTTP model.

[julianh72]

A little history lesson will demonstrate why this wasn't going to happen, and why a government-built NBN was the only way.

The particular problem we had in Australia is that because of a series of very poor policy choices in the 1990s and 2000s, Telstra had a monopoly over fixed line telecom services, and used its monopoly powers exactly in accordance with classic economic theory - for the financial interests of their shareholders, not for the public good. Why would they spend money investing in new infrastructure when you already have 100% market share? Such expansion of services as did happen was done purely as "cherry-picking" of areas that had high returns (business centres, high-density upper-quartile income suburbs, major corporates, etc), but there was never any intent to provide ubiquitous high-speed broadband to the whole country.

They also used their monopoly position to stamp out competition. Remember the "cable wars" of the 1900s?

The Telstra (later Foxtel) cable was originally planned to pass 1.1 million homes by 1996. The intention was purely to supply Pay TV into wealthy areas with disposable income; it had nothing to do with "expanding Australia telecoms infrastructure". (It wasn't even designed to carry telephone services - a legacy we are still feeling today, as it is being re-purposed for the MTM.)

In 1994, Optus announced it would build its own HFC network to pass 2.77 million homes, but by and large covering areas not in the Foxtel "footprint", so there would have been something like 4 million homes with access to one or the other cable, but in most cases, not both.

Telstra countered by expanding their network to cover 4 million homes, by over-building the Optus footprint (which is why so many capital city streets have two cables, while other areas have none).

Optus couldn't match Telstra's spend and market dominance, and cut back their planned roll-out in 1997, when it became obvious they couldn't win the war with Telstra; Telstra subsequently cut back their own roll-out -
it was pretty apparent that their roll-out scale-up was purely about market dominance, nothing to do with the "common good", or giving customers a choice. With the competition wiped out, there was no longer any commercial need to expand, even though most Australian residences still don't have access to cable.

Optus basically wrote off its investment in cable in 2002, and never really recovered, so their maintenance spending was inadequate - which was demonstrated when the NBN paid $800 million to acquire the Optus HFC network, and then declared it unfit for service as part of the MTM.

https://www.accc.gov.au/system/files/Optus%20Appendix%20I%20-%20Telstras%20Overbuild%20of%20the% 20Optus%20HFC%20Network%20-%20public%20version%20-%20May%2008.pdf

That's what happens when you leave it to free-market monopolies to look after Australia's telecom infrastructure needs.

[LewisM]

Telstra tech arrived on time (shock of shocks!), and went straight to the cable entry point outside. Plugged in his phone thingy and computer to see the connected node, ran a diagnostic, and audibly exclaimed "$h1t". Said the wires on our side was fine, but the node was showing issues. He was gone for 2 hours or so, and came back and said he had changed over ports for us as the old one was suspect. He also said there was NO ADSL 2 infrastructure on the node at all, so we are stuck for "legacy" ADSL 1 until NBN descends upon us in a funk and gloom sometime next year.

Ran some speed tests - now 8.2 Mb/s (wow lol), but upload still craptacular 0.3. Ping time still same.

So far not a single drop out or time out. VERY solid connection so far.

Knowing Telstra, the port we were on was probably over-sold.

[toc]

I thank the ALP every single damn day, because I was lucky enough get their NBN - full FTTP :P

[Visionary]

A good Conservative Leader would have apologized for the stupidity of the Rudd Gillard NBN, then pulled the plug on the entire thing, thus saving Billions! The Rudd Gillard NBN was never anything more than a thought bubble and it should never have seen the light of day.
Turnbull, is not a good Conservative Leader, he is nothing more than an Ex-Merchant Banker, the bottom-most dwelling iteration of that most loathsome class of individuals, the Banker.
Proof the Tunbull is unfit to hold office... "Remember when Abbott and Turnbull won the 2013 election on their mantra of "faster, cheaper, more affordable", the promise was that everybody would have at least 25 Mbps by the end of 2016 (promise well and truly broken), and 90% would have at least 50 Mbps by 2019 (extremely unlikely to be achieved - especially since the current NBN plan is for deployment to be completed by the end of 2020)" This was the opportunity to bite the bullet and can the NBN. Sucking up the penalties would have been far cheaper than running with the thought bubble NBN.
The Nation desperately needs someone not tainted by the Political Class to come to office, as to where such an individual may hail, well... certainly not from the ALP and increasingly unlikely from the LNP. The nations Political Class is rotten to the core and desperately needs reform or we may see another NBN type fiasco develop. Our Nation can't afford another NBN, or Pink Batts disaster, we as a Nation requires sound Governance, and we clearly won't find such governance from within our Political Class.

[sharpiel]

Wow...

[Terry B]

There will always be lots of variation. Mine seems to work very well at my work (see attached) but I can't get NBN at all at my home and currently never will. I have ADSL of varying speeds and can watch low res foxtel now as long as all other devices are turned off. This includes making sure all phones aren't uploading in the background.
They offer satellite but this is poorer than the ADSL. There are fixed wireless towers nearby but they need line of sight and won't go through trees. I could erect a 50m tower to solve this but this costs $$$.The map shows our property in a NBN hole surrounded by service. This is a pest.