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simon_rl
16-09-2017, 03:40 PM
Is it just me or does anyone else think they are way over priced at roughly $4500?

https://astronomy-imaging-camera.com/products/asi-cooled-cameras/asi094mc-pro-color/

OK they are just under $4300 from Bintel at the moment, but given you can get a better performing Atik 16200 for $5k these prices seem astronomical to me for OSC. Please correct me if you think I am wrong.

Nikolas
16-09-2017, 06:19 PM
ZWO unfortunately have gotten ahead of themselves and have started to charge premium prices.

to me it's all about profits now rather than really caring about their customer base or astronomy

glend
16-09-2017, 07:57 PM
That is hardly a fair generalisation given ZWO's product history of innovation and delivering good performance at a very reasonable price. The Pro series of full frame cameras are a new line for ZWO, and not indicative of a total change in product dirrction or pricing. You could well crucify Skywatcher for their over priced Esprit series refractors as well, given the competition in that sector. Lets see how it plays out, and don't forget ZWO has other products in the development pipeline and R&D does cost money.

kens
16-09-2017, 11:25 PM
I don't understand the "better performing". The ZWO has a larger sensor, larger FWC, much lower read noise (2.1e- vs 9e-) and is USB3 so much much faster readout (plus a 256Mb buffer). The Atik has a 16bit ADC vs 14bit but that is negligible difference. The major advantage of the Atik is the cooling capacity of -50C vs -35C delta.

And yet the ZWO is still hundreds of $ cheaper. I assume the figure of $5k for the Atik refers to the OSC model which currently has no prices listed on Bintels site. The mono is $5.5k - over $1k more.
So if one was in the market for a full-frame OSC it sounds pretty good to me.

Camelopardalis
17-09-2017, 09:09 AM
OSC and mono are different markets IMO. You either want mono or you don't.

The Sony sensors in the new cams are established best-in-class for daytime photography, as demonstrated by Sony and Nikon cameras in recent years.

The 16200 is somewhat unique in being relatively inexpensive compared to the larger OnSemi chips, having smalle pixels too. But it's not full frame...it's APS-H, so 35mm in diameter.

Given the relative price, I wouldn't be in a hurry to abandon my 1600 for a 16200, or a full frame...but that's just my sentiment. That's not to say the 094 wouldn't be a great widefield photon collector :D

simon_rl
17-09-2017, 09:45 AM
Well I guess that takes the Atik out of the equation for this conversation :lol:. I thought the Atik was only $5k, maybe it went up after release.

I still think both of the new ZWOs are way over priced and you would be better off getting the Nikon D810 (or even a D810a) or D750 (don't know what model sensor this camera has). Not having cooling will not be a major issue given the dynamic range and noise performance on both of these cameras, it is brilliant, speaking from experience. Neither camera suffers from hot pixels and the noise on both cameras is very consistent and would be easy to remove during stacking.

Now the D850 has been released there are low shutter count D810's for sale for around the $2k mark and you can get them new for $2800 with AU warranty if you shop around on eBay. Either way you would be at least $1500 better off and have a camera that you can use normally or for astro. The D750 can be picked up new for $1800, which is a fair bit cheaper that the ZWO 24mp camera.

Just my 2 cents.

Camelopardalis
17-09-2017, 09:50 AM
There's something to be said for regulated cooling. Whether that's worth the $$$ over a used Nikon is up to the buyer :lol:

This is not intended as defence for ZWO - I have no connection to them besides owning one of their cameras - but buying those sensors and developing a camera around them, especially in limited numbers, has a cost. Who knows what the wholesale cost of those sensors is, in such small quantities. Just putting a scenario out there that doesn't entirely centre on price gouging...

glend
17-09-2017, 10:30 AM
Cooling makes a big difference, and uncooled DSLRs cannot match a current generation cooled CMOS astro camera for low noise long subs, especially during summer nights. DSLRs generate internal heat from the processors and there is no way to get rid of it; the more subs you shoot the more the heat builds up. It won't affect the first sub but number one hundred will be a mess in comparison. Cooled cameras produce identical results all night long.

simon_rl
17-09-2017, 03:16 PM
I totally agree, my ASI1600 is fantastic especially given the price. I guess my main beef with the new ZWO cameras is price.

Yes they will be great for wide field and I think they will shine in that area.

kens
17-09-2017, 04:03 PM
Given that the sensor is nearly twice the area of the ASI1600 plus it has more than twice the FWC, 14 bit ADC and memory buffer I would expect it to be somewhat more than twice the price of the ASI1600 so the price tag seems to be in the right ball park.