is a cooled camera necessary

[jimmyh1555]

I am thinking of getting a better camera, and cant decide if a cooled one is really necessRY. I live in Tassie and it is never really hot here. Right now in winter, if I can ever see the sky, it is always ambient around 4 - 10 deg C . Do cooled cameras make that much difference seeing as we have software to remove noise anyway? Is it a hang over from the olden days (:lol:) before these little coolers were invented?
I would love to hear your opinions!!

[glend]

Well rhere is cool and there is "cool". Typically, a DSLR internal processor and battery produces most of the heat retained inside, and that will certainly be higher than outside air temp. If you are going to cool a sensor it should be done to the sensor directly and that requires a TEC and a cold finger to work best. Cooled DSLRs can be expensive, but some perform very well if you can get them down to 0C (the sensor temp). A cooled astro CMOS camera can run sensir temps to -45C below ambient, some CCD cameras achieve even cooled thresholds. Software noise reduction is never preferable to a cool sensor in my opinion, and noise takes several forms. Noise removed by cooling is only the thermal kind, and a well built astro camera will, today, have low read noise as well.
I have run stock DSLRs, cold finger cooled DSLRs, and dedicated deep cooled astro CMOS cameras, hands down the later performed the best for both thermal and read noise. This is my opinion.

[Benjamin]

Not qualified to answer really (i.e. very new to all this) but am noticing as I'm getting darks with my DSLR (using a battery eliminator and surrounding the camera with ice bricks) that although the ambient temp makes a difference it's also the time delay between shots that significantly helps in keeping temps down. I have no idea how long the sensor need to rest to fully cool down but a 2 minute rest on my 40D seems to make it reasonably stable (differences of 2-4 degrees across 50 300s darks). Longer rest I think would still be better but at present it's all guess work.

[PKay]

I am also very new at this (3 months) but I do listen to the experts.
I have been using an old Canon 500D.
Here is my understanding:

For targets like Orion where you have lots of contrast and high signal to noise ratio (SNR) the Canon does just fine.

However when I was imaging a very feint Nebula, where the SNR is very low, noise became a huge issue.
No software processing can fix that.

So to fix that you have to reduce the noise at the source ie: the camera.

I have just ordered one of these:

ZWO ASI 1600MC-C cooled camera.

I have been told that I won't look back...

[jimmyh1555]

I was thinking really, about cooled astro cameras - I hope to get a ZWO or similar dedicated for astro. I have a Pentax DSLR which takes beaut pictures of Milky Way and am quite happy to leave it at that and family snaps, BUT for the sky, those lovely nebulae and galaxies are calling me......... Even in the summer nights of Tassie, it is not particularly hot!
Ice blocks and cameras...AAAAAGGGGGGHHHHH NO NO NO:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[jimmyh1555]

Then of course there is the next question.... colour or mono, should I go for cooled colour, or uncooled mono, or to Hell with the expense, and plum for a cooled mono?????

[Merlin66]

My vote would be cooled mono....minimal camera noise, maximum resolution.
(For spectroscopy that's all we use....you must suppress as much noise as possible at source. Each subsequent processing step adds noise.)

[Lognic04]

I vote cooled mono! :D - That will definitely be my next major purchase, gotta start saving...

[Benjamin]

Ice BRICKS (in a plastic bag) so DSLR very happy 😊 Even then sensor temps only get down to 20C.
I'm saving for the ASI1600MM-C (plus filter wheel etc.). Given the LP I often image in I'm thinking narrowband is probably my best bet

[PKay]

I also pondered over that choice, colour or mono, great expense, or not.

Resolved it this way:

One step at a time.

The Canon got me so far and gave extraordinary results along the way. However it started to limit my imagery (feint objects).

The next step is the colour cooled ZWO (or equivalent). I don't have to spend mega bucks and it will take me further.

I suppose, in time, if again I become limited, and have hung in there, I will have a greater understanding of astro photography.

At this point I may justify spending mega bucks and take on board the world of mono cameras and filters.

I know that is where the experts are, and I am not an expert.

[Benjamin]

Surfing cloudynights etc. I came to the understanding that OSC is fine without lots of LP and Mono with filters (preferably narrowband) is the better choice in LP. However I'd love to hear from others about this too :-) :welcome:

[PKay]

Surfing cloudynights etc. I came to the understanding that OSC is fine without lots of LP and Mono with filters (preferably narrowband) is the better choice in LP. However I'd love to hear from others about this too :-)

Please excuse. I have no idea what OSC, LP mean.

[jimmyh1555]

Same here, what's OSC, LP Ain't got a clue

[Benjamin]

Sorry... OSC = One Shot Colour (as opposed to combining multiple images from different filters etc.) and LP = Light Polution :-)

[kens]

Scroll down to the section on Dark Current evaluation to see the effect of cooling
https://jonrista.com/the-astrophotographers-guide/the-zwo-asi1600-guide/the-zwo-asi1600/preliminary-analysis/

[jimmyh1555]

Well, that's it! Cooled monochrome and watch out David Malin;) I'm going to buy some bitcoins and if they double by Christmas, then the monochrome with cooling, filters, bins, stackers, filters, electric focusers, will be mine:D Thanks for all your comments

[ZeroID]

AAaaarrgghhh!! :rolleyes:
I had convinced myself that OSC with the ZWO 1600mc was the way to go and you guys just rocked the boat !

But I have some bad LP issues.
But I want better resolution
But I get minimal sky time as it is
But it is more expense
But it is more complicated

Sigh ..... :shrug:

Back to the drawing board .. and saving ... $$$$

[glend]

Brent, Narrowband with the ASI1600MM-C will address most of your requirements, except it is more complicated and requires more time. However, that camera can perform very nicely pushed to high gain setting, cutting down on sub times significantly.

Alternatively, the new STC Multispectrum light pollution filter (available from Cyclops Optics in Hong Kong) looks to be very effective. Stick that on say an ASI071 OSC and you address most of your requirements.

The QHY equivalents are worth a look at well.

[ChrisV]

This a a tough question, so i might as well muddy the water with another response from an AP newbie.

I've got a dslr and a colour-cooled camera. If I wanted to do just AP I would strangle all I could out of the DSL. As Glen says, there's a lot to learn even with an OSC before putting filters etc into the mixing pot. The I'd go straight to mono-cooled. That will help with LP etc, and you'll get those beautiful shots I drool over down in the 'deep space' section.

I love the cooled colour as I also do live broadcasting/imaging. I will eventually get a mono cooled for AP - something like the 1600. But there will probably be some new great thing by then. I understand QHY have been talking about a new APS-C sized cooled mono camera for a while. They are debayering some colour sensor ?

If you go with the cooled OSC you should also consider QHY. I have the ZWO ASI071 - its a great camera but it has an issue. You need a computer with USB3. If you only have USB2, reading off the camera is slow and you get amp-glow (it can be removed with darks but that's not ideal - its in a cloudy nights thread somewhere). I believe the QHY doesn't have this issue as it has a sizeable onboard memory buffer.

[ZeroID]

Hi Glen,

ASI071 OSC ? Geez, that's even dearer !

I keep putting off the mono option as being in the 'too hard' category but in reality it's my next logical step. The Canon 1200D has worked well but if I want to move up my imaging capabilities then mono is the direction. The 1600mc is only marginally smaller than the Canon with regards to FOV so I need to justify much better imaging to make the upgrade.

I actually have the cash from my Ebike builds, I just loathe parting with it !! :lol: I have a couple more builds pending as well so some more cash coming soon.

Must almost be time to bite the bullet. I'll probably just go for the basic No 1 Mini kit. Works out at just over $2000 NZ Might get bold and get an ZWO OAG as well. Just to complicate it even further. :D

Look out for NZ to become the Land of the Long White Persistent Cloud.

Cheers

[Camelopardalis]

I actually find mono easier to work with. There's only one additional step which is channel combination, but after that you have to colour balance just as you would with OSC...or at least, I always did with my modded Canon. Plus it gives you the opportunity to capture narrowband while the Moon is up...more imaging opportunities the better as far as I'm concerned :D