Atik is working on a CMOS camera

[Slawomir]

Interesting developments at Atik; it seems to be Atik's variant of ASI 1600:
https://www.atik-cameras.com/news/first-atik-cmos-camera-prototype/

I might be tempted to pull a trigger on this one, once available.

So it is now ZWO, QHY and soon Atik offering affordable deep space CMOS astro cameras. The more the merrier :thumbsup:

[Camelopardalis]

That's interesting news, thanks for sharing Suavi :thumbs up:

It'll be interesting to see how they target the lower end of the market with their approach, and I guess importantly, their pricing.

[glend]

Well they seem pretty late in discovering this market segment. That sensor real estate seems well covered by opposition with a very big head start. Could be that their sales have suffered due to ZWO and they trying to stay relevant. Sort of reminds me of how all the suppliers tried to stake out 8300 market share.

[Slawomir]

I think these may become quite popular. I believe several amateurs held off with acquiring a CMOS camera by ZWO/QHY for various reasons. If Atik manages to make a quality product at a competitive price, it might become popular among amateurs.

However, you might be right Glen with Atik sales possibly suffering from competition. This is a reply from Atik to my question about them making a CMOS-based camera that I asked exactly a year ago:

At this point, we've found that CMOS sensors still don't compete with CCDs in the realm of long exposure, cooled astrophotography. That said, they are improving all the time and we always keep an eye on new technologies that we could use in our cameras - it has the potential to be an exciting few years!

[DJScotty]

Well i have to say that is interesting news. But i certainly will not be purchasing any more atik products after my experiences with my previous cameras

[Slawomir]

Sorry about your negative experience with Atik Scott. But I am also a bit concerned about longevity of ZWO cameras, or their service-free lifespan. I might be wrong here (hopefully!). In all honesty if would be great if QSI made a CMOS camera with integrated FW and OAG - I would be all over it!

[RickS]

An area of the market worth watching. When CMOS gets good enough I'll be happy to move, but my definition of good requires big sensors, not just low read noise.

I doubt that ZWO is having a significant impact on the serious players. More than 90% of their volume is in life sciences. We only get astro cameras because they are already making them for somebody else ;)

[Camelopardalis]

The market is certainly an interesting one. Atik will certainly need to pitch their product carefully, but I agree with Rick in that those that want a big CCD will always buy one, they're not going to be swayed by a sub-$2k product.

If Atik is the first of the traditional players to deliver a CMOS to market at a slight premium they may open more of a market to themselves. After all, the industry has hardly been pumping th field full of new and interesting CCDs. The 16200 is probably the most interesting since the 674/694/814 Sonys, but the read noise is still on the high side.

Having come from a DSLR, the 1600 is a game changer.

[Atmos]

If QHY could make their QHY367C as a mono that may just sway you over Rick :P
3.2e- read noise & ~60,000e- well depth, 4.88 micron pixels, 36.3mp full frame sensor with 14-bits of dynamic range.

[RickS]

We've got a FLI 16200 camera due for delivery this week for the TEC 160FL in New Mexico. With a decent automated set up the longer subs needed to overcome read noise aren't a big deal, IMO.



Sounds pretty decent, Colin, but only full frame size? :) If I'm going to consider it an upgrade it needs to be bigger than a KAF-16803.

[Atmos]

Fuji is not far off releasing a 50mp medium format DSLR with talks of going to ~100mp in medium format.

[RickS]

Nice!

[gregbradley]

That read noise is probably at ISO100. It would be a lot lower at higher ISO.
My Sony A7r2 sensor - the successor to this 36mp sensor, yields well below 1 electron read noise at higher ISOs.

Greg.

[Atmos]

Certainly is at ISO 100, only goes down to about ~2e- RMS though.
I am guessing that Sony doesn't want anyone else using that sensor at the moment is Nikon nor QHY can get their hands on it. If only Sony didn't have some star eater algorithm!

[Camelopardalis]

Be interested to here how you get on Rick, after all signal is signal, noise is noise...



I've seen these in several camera stores in Melb...the GFX-50S I think it's called. If they follow it up with a less pro model like with the X-series, it might be more accessible, although I suspect a more pro-sumer medium format isn't high on their priority list.

[Camelopardalis]

IIRC QHY is quoting ~2.2e at unity gain.

[SimmoW]

No impact on Atik sales? A little birdy in a large retailer once let slip that ZWO were killing the astro camera market, with the more traditional suppliers suffering a lot. So I'm not surprised those companies are trying to emulate them

Yeah agree though, a full frame mono would be hard to pass by!

[RickS]

Hey Simon,

Folks like FLI and Andor supply the scientific market in general. At the last AAIC the guy from FLI showed a graph of how much they sell into various applications and astrophotography is only a tiny part of their business - pretty much a rounding error :) I doubt they are too worried about ZWO. Things might be different for Atik and maybe some of the other more astro focused vendors.

Cheers,
Rick.

[lazjen]

For most people, the FLI, et al end of the spectrum is not an option, so it's also not a surprise that astro is a small part of their business - they're not making a price point to capture or create the market. Since there seems to be some demand for astrophotography gear, it's not surprising that ZWO is doing as well as it is and I think it's also expanding the market.

With other players joining in - and perhaps they are more astro focused - this will help drive innovation, consumer demand, etc. Perhaps in time, the astrophotography market will be seen by these higher end manufacturers as a real market (even if niche) that is worthy of their attention. If not, eventually they'll drift out of the market and will be replaced.

[RickS]

Why would you build a low margin, cheaper product when there's little competitive pressure to do so? They are selling products for professional use. It just happens that some astro hobbyists can afford them as well.



It's still a tiny niche mostly serviced by small businesses. This is a few years old but IMHO it still reflects the state of our hobby: http://mutable-states.com/tens-of-dollars.html



I agree that it's a good thing to have low cost options other than a DSLR and hope it will bring more people into AP. I just don't think that ZWO will put everybody else out of business.

Cheers,
Rick.

[lazjen]

Oh, I certainly don't expect FLI, et al to change for exactly the reasons you mention. It's the players coming up from the bottom that have a chance to disrupt.

And I also understand the details on that "tens of dollars" page, but I think the factors for that are also changing. I'm unsure though if/when there will be a critical mass for change but I can see some possibilities. I still think we've got a bit of chicken and egg problem here - is the demand more muted because it's basically not consumer friendly?

Anyway, no matter how it goes, I also think ZWO won't put anyone out of business - if they do, I suspect the writing would have been on the wall for that company anyway.

[RickS]

I think we agree then, Chris, and we can give Suavi his thread back :D