It steams my clams when someone complains about Bintel's prices

[kittenshark]

...now that I'm a telescope retailer myself, I know how hard it is to keep everyone happy with prices.

Today I had someone ask me about why a A$79 for a Telrad is a 100% markup when it is listed on Amazon for US$40.

I replied that other retailers have the same price as we do, and we have Australian warranty, and very fast (overnight) shipping when we have it in stock, or you can drop by and pick it up same day. Told him the sums don't add up and he gets into a hissy fit about astro retailers overcharging everyone.

Sorry, but Amazon don't ship to Australia. In my experience Amazon sellers will charge a lot of shipping because Australia is a long way from the US; a freight forwarder will have a base charge of about $30-$40, not including the shipping charge, which brings your Telrad to $70 excluding the shipping charge itself--USD.

Your LAS (I'm coning a new acronym now Local Astronomy Shop) has to pay landlords, bills, and gasp! a living wage. And they need to charge you GST 10% which goes back to the ATO.

Where are these people pulling their figures from?! Do they even do elementary school maths?

OK, maybe people complaining about us and Bintel prices being a little high is not that bad...

...but don't get me started on people complaining to us about Astro Pete's prices and please please can we beat those prices?! :mad2: How bout no?

If you complain about our prices, fine--because some of our overheads are more expensive, but I can't help you make the entire industry stoop to that level and we certainly do not do price collusion because that is illegal and we're not in the business of ripping customers off!!

Seriously! Where do these people come from? Running a business in this economy is different from running one overseas! :screwy: Margins in this business are very small compared to things like clothing and food.

[Nikolas]

I bought an orion ed 80 from amazon a week ago, all up it cost 690 delivered in less than a week, guess how much they retail here......

[raymo]

People should also realise that astro supplies would be a relatively low
volume business that could not exist on miniscule profit margins such as those "enjoyed" by high volume businesses.
Talking of miniscule, Australia is a miniscule market, so importers can't even get the benefit of bulk purchasing.
raymo

[kittenshark]

Good luck getting warranty service on that one. I've lost count on the number of customers who thought they got warranty service on imports but when something goes wrong the US retailer won't pay help them at all, and the local dealer can't help get parts because the supplier won't supply it for people importing themselves.

Synta (skywatcher and orion) scopes have 5 years manufacturer's warranty. This is why you get the $1,095 price tag for the Ed80s here because the warranty service is done locally.

[kittenshark]

When we get more stock moving through, we will be able to lower the prices. But right now we are a "boutique" type shop. I aim to get us up to a warehouse shop where we can get more volume discounts.

But that's a long shot.

[raymo]

I hope there's nothing wrong with it Nik, because you'll have to pay the freight to send it back to the U.S.
raymo

[Nikolas]

It's perfect. These things are built like tanks and perform beautifully. In all my time buying and selling I've never had issues, lucky maybe or just lots of homework.
Also Anthony who ran Bintel in Melbourne is opening up his telescope repair business soon so even if there was an issue it would still be cheaper to sort any issue here than to spend almost $450 more to purchase one locally.

[kittenshark]

OMG you reminded me of this person we had to bought Bushnell Legend binos that had lifetime warranty from B&H in the states... but they refused to help her and we can't do even out of warranty repairs cos the new binos can't be repaired by a third party--it's impossible to get into them. She's upset she can't get it repaired, we're upset we can't make her happy but what can you do...

Only the binos cost 2-3 times much depending on the model, but when you're talking about lifetime warranty, you're paying for a lifetime of servicing and replacement.

The longer the warranty service, likely the bigger difference in price.

At the moment we aren't doing big Orion stuff, because Skywatcher has very similar stuff and I'd rather leave Bintel to sell Orion because the market here is very small like raymo mentioned.

We only get decent quantity/bulk discounts if we import by container load. I'm looking to get containers moving through but that means new premises, bigger outlay of capital, and lots of risk.

If you go to any less common hobby shops, you'll see the same thing. I got into marine aquariums and it is interesting to talk to the shop owner and they also experience the same thing. And for them, they're dealing with livestock. You could argue that fish and reef rock ('live rock') is free, but think about it... you have to pay your supplier/collectors, their overheads, freight, and then running costs to keep the fishies alive until someone buys them. I think markups in that industry is more like 200%-500%.

[Nikolas]

Seriously what could go so wrong?
It arrived it is perfect it works. In the rare occasion one of these are faulty there are other ways of getting it serviced/repaired that still would be cheaper than paying the full price.
I have bought large ticket and small ticket items from Bintel but since they shut up shop in Melbourne it's been a nightmare. I've ordered 2 items from them and they never take out the postage cost until AFTER it has been sent so you are never sure how much an item will cost to be sent to Melbourne. It's a little dishonest as it's not in the final price. This is not the Bintel I supported.
Ozscopes are ok but they don't stock a lot of stuff. It's getting harder to get what you need locally. Warranty is nice to have but it's not the be all and end all when I purchase stuff that is hundreds of dollars cheaper for medium and small ticket items.
How many people buy second hand and are happy?
unfortunately as long as we are gouged by the importers the retailers are the ones who suffer.
So you should not have a beef with the end user your beef is with the importers and the middle men. *cough celestron cough* is a prize example. I know that there are changes in motion with celestron but it's nothing set in concrete yet and they are still over priced here.

[MattT]

Is this thread about why prices are high in Oz or an ad for Sirius Optics?

:question::question::question:

Matt

[Nikolas]

By the way what is the name of your company? you got a link?

[kittenshark]

Most of the time they will be OK. Modern mass market scopes are built to better standards than they are some years ago.

Not everyone has the time to do all the research--we provide the service in helping them get the scope they need.

We expect about a 5-10% failure rate to play safe but even that can be too optimistic. We suddenly found manufacturing fault in a number of Meade scopes this month and if it weren't for the margins we charge we would have been toast because of all the lost time we had to spend fixing them. :sad: Yes, scopes are built well, but manufacturing faults are common--that's what warranties are for. Remember the guy who bought the Esprit? Those things are tanks. Super solid. But not immune to faults.

If you got a local repair place to go--it's to your advantage, but not everyone is so lucky or live close to one.

How are the Melbourne boys doing? I sent a couple of people their emails when they needed repairs in Melbourne but I don't know if they got themselves properly set up yet.

[Nikolas]

Not sure yet about how Anthony is going yet he said the this year is when he was gonna start in earnest.
Here is his website
http://www.battes.com.au/

[kittenshark]

I had a beef with the particular end user who just didn't know how to do simple sums. We were talking about an item that was actually cheaper to get locally!

I caught up with Celestron and they're still setting themselves up as Celestron Australia. They were way overpriced still land that's why we decided not to do Celestron. They only want to deal with container-loads now, but if one's dealing with that volume, you'd expect steeper discounts, but I'm not sure if this is the case. We'll see, we'll see.

So following your logic your beef shouldn't be with the retailer, but with the importers and middle men?

I thought one calls Bintel direct for a shipping quote first? Strange that they charge you after... but that said it's really hard to make a shipping quote calculator that doesn't screw up half the time.

I just want to share with you some of the inner workings of a LAS and the reasons behind our prices.

Yes, we can repair and help, but some products require specific parts, and some suppliers will only support and supply parts if it was bought from that particular authorized dealers.

[kittenshark]

You're a lifesaver, thanks!

[Nikolas]

Yep it is the importers and suppliers that are the real crooks in the business, we have way too many hierarchies all taking a cut before it even gets to the retailer



One does not have time to call and wait on hold when one is in the classroom and time is limited outside of teaching and administration.
It can't be that hard to give an estimate, how do other sites do it?
[/quote]


Hence I only purchase items that can be dealt with easily from overseas unless they are complex, then I'll take the hit.

[kittenshark]

Hence I only purchase items that can be dealt with easily from overseas unless they are complex, then I'll take the hit.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for sharing Nik!

I promise not to whine about customers who have done their homework and don't expect us to fix their broken toys on the cheap for them or under "warranty". Most of our customers are very patient angels, but then you got some weird guy whining about something that isn't true... it really throws you off.

Personally, it took us months (almost 6) to get the website up and running. We refused to launch it until we got the shipping calculator done. It took months because the people who made the plugin were flat-out busy and we couldn't do it ourselves. So I totally understand Bintel wanting you to call first for a quote. I think even with everyone calling for quotes it wouldn't take up 6 months of our time!

A good estimate, if you want to get an idea of shipping and you know the box size and weight, is to hop on to Temando or Baggage Freight online quoting system. They do volume discount pricing so it's cheaper than AusPost for large parcels.

And it still occasionally is glitchy. :mad2: There are other plugins/services but they were slow, gave poor rates, or only worked with overseas (mainly US) sites. I had it giving people $400 quotes for shipping a tiny box locally at one time but I think I fixed it.:lol:

[raymo]

I'd just like everyone to know that I have no connection to any company, and
was making observations based on owning a watch and jewellery shop many
years ago.

[kittenshark]

Actually raymo, it is a very similar business in may ways. It is retailing fairly high-value items that are low volume. The main difference here is that it is bulky goods and you need a lot of shop/warehouse space.

I used to run a costume jewelry shop as well and my markups were insane even though I imported materials direct and manufactured locally. The reason was that it was a low volume business with a number of other fixed costs. When I saw the markups in astronomy gear I was rather shocked that they were so low, after being used to huge margins. But hey, it's working out.

[janoskiss]

Buyers will try to maximise what they can get for their money. If the savings are more than about 10% then warranty becomes irrelevant because the odds of needing it are probably less than 10%. That is unless the buyer likes to gamble when the odds are stacked against them. ("Neddy doesn't believe in insurance. He considers it a form of gambling." :P)

If I can afford to support local vendors then I will. But there comes a point where one cannot justify paying so much more: normally willing to pay up to 30% mark-up, but anything approaching 50%, e.g. $800 online vs $1200 local, forget it!

But what I tend to find is that if I make the effort to shop around and actually contact enough Aussie vendors (not just browse websites), they will either get me a good deal, or give good advice on where to buy. These are the best kind of vendors. :love:

Like AEC, whom I asked about Nikon NAV-SWs a couple of months back and they told me (verbatim as far as I recall our phone conversation): "Don't buy those from us because we're very expensive [Aussie dollar etc]. You're better off buying directly from Japan." I got similar advice from Matt at Telescopes & Astronomy regarding binoviewers. Can't beat honesty for earning a customer's loyalty. These vendors have also supplied me with excellent value for money equipment in the past btw. :thumbsup:

Re Bintel, I don't know what they're like these days. I'm in Melbourne and sorry to have learned recently that Roger Davis is no longer running that shop. He loved a chat about scope building and helped me out on many occasions, just because he loved doing so, not because he wanted to make a sale. He'd often fix me up with spares from his personal collection of scope bits. :astron:

[astroron]

No one here has mentioned the company you named.
The person who is defending the Australian Astro shops
Is doing it in a fair and reasonable way, not mentioning
Any business they are associated with.
Cheers:thumbsup:

[Kunama]

You don't need to be Sherlock Holmes to work it out though :question:

But I do agree that it is important to support local companies, I feel I have done my part in keeping AEC-Takahashi and MyAstroShop going ;)

[MortonH]

I think society in general no longer sees the value of buying locally when that means a higher price. We just look at the bottom line, go with the cheapest option and cross our fingers that we won't have a problem (if we even consider it at all).

It would be interesting to have a thread about equipment issues people have had and how they were resolved (or not). The current thread on the Skywatcher dud is a good example.

[Nikolas]

Actually because consumers are better informed about how we have been royally ripped off by the middle men is why they are pursuing other more cost effective options, it's up to the retailers to do their bit and point out the rorting and gouging, in a vocal and public way. Time for the retailers to unionise so to speak




I don't think there are a huge amount of people with problems, there may be some but you'll find the majority of the consumers are happy with their purchases, it's only when something goes wrong you hear about it

[N1]

I'm willing to accept a certain premium if it means supporting vendors closer to home, provided they offer a good level of service. Those who don't I couldn't care less about, even if they were based inside my letter box (provided they pay their rent on time :P).

Having said that, your "supporting local astronomy" dollar will go a heck of a lot further if you support a local astronomy club that engages in outreach work and makes astronomy (as a hobby or otherwise) accessible to those who see the local vs overseas debate as positively irrelevant because they can't afford either.

[astroron]

As I said the poster has not mentioned any name of any company she is associated with.
Not everyone would be aware of her affiliation.?
What is she supposed to do?
I for one do not think she was promoting her company, she was telling it as she sees it.
That you deduced what company she is with is up to you.
As I repeat No company was named.
Cheers:thumbsup:
PS
Bintel and My Astro shop have got just about all of my astro shopping in the
last 5 years. :)

[kittenshark]

As a matter of fact, I handle the equipment rentals for Brisbane Astronomical Society. I've wanted to step down from the role ages ago since I started running the shop but it's a job nobody wants.

For $20 a month you get to rent scope setups that you normally pay thousands and dollars for. It's not something everyone can afford. I know because I was in that position a few years ago. For customers who can't afford it but are dead keen on trying something like an AZ-EQ6, I encourage them to rent first, learn how to use it, and decide before buying to avoid buyer's remorse. Fun fact: I actually never bought a telescope for myself before buying the store because I always had the club scopes with me.

I would love to move away from the storefront and do online-only, but a lot of folks just want to have a physical brick and mortar store to go to and chat to someone. If we go online-only, we are competing internationally and that's really difficult and risky. I'm looking to do something in-between, which is a warehouse in an industrial zone. If it comes to it, we might even have to move out of the country to run the business offshore. But then, without a shopfront, we can't do fun things like bringing in a 20" scope and showing it off, or to have your saturday morning teas in the shop with our longtime customers. Or hold workshops. Or to just let people wander in and enjoy browsing.

The fact that Bintel had to close their Melbourne storefront is sad, and it inconveniences many people. I saw it as a sign that people just don't support their LAS enough. But that said, the economy and business environment changes, and if you don't change you're dead. I've closed a number of stocklines because they're too specialised and it's better for the customer to just import direct and we tell them where to buy. However... if you expect us to keep a storefront open, and demand that we match online-only overseas prices, it's not realistic, and it's annoying.

You see all these "buy Australian" campaigns in many industries... the same applies to LASs.

[dreamstation]

I'd prefer to support local businesses as much as the next Australian but when local prices (no matter how justified) are so much more expensive than overseas it's hard to justify the difference. Belts have been tightened in recent years and we've had to adapt. Supporting locals is a two way street and the blame should not be put entirely on the consumer.

A recent example for me was buying a flashlight from Amazon US because it was 50% cheaper including shipping to my door (they had a sale) than buying it locally from the authorised Australian dealer that I bought the last one from. One can not justify that much extra for the same product.

Another example of how Australians are being gouged is the video game market. Not sure how many of you here are familiar with that scene but there's a massive digital distribution platform called Steam which has millions of users worldwide. They charge Australians on the Australian store of said platform in USD (the ACCC has taken Valve, the people who run this platform, to court for other reasons and this has delayed the implementation of AUD currency for our store).

Prices on the Australian store are sometimes up to 40-50% more expensive than the US store which is also in USD (obviously.) There is no shipping of contents, all of the content is delivered digitally so the increase in price is nothing more than what we love to call 'The Australian Tax'.

[kittenshark]

Well, we did vote with our wallet by not buying from certain suppliers if they overcharge us too much. We told them but if they've got department and toy stores in their pocket, they're not likely to listen to specialist shops.

Even if one customer is having problems, it's one customer too many. The pervious owner might not have cared especially towards the last few years, but that's not how we roll.

[Camelopardalis]

Not sure why anyone would be bothered about a retailer posting a topic, it presents an interesting insight / day in the life :D

I, for one, can't fathom those who look at a price overseas, can't master basic currency conversion or international shipping costs, and then expect local stores to match it.

In astro, Australia doesn't have the economy of scale. Having come from the UK which (despite the weather!) has a bigger astro market with a population of 65 million, all of the astro dealers I can think of are all pretty much single-shop small set-ups. But in this day of Amazon, where on that small isle items can be delivered same-day to some areas, there are unrealistic expectations placed on any small business.

There's no way I'd buy a telescope from overseas unless could afford to lose the $$$ involved...

[N1]

I don't know the numbers, but to me as a "layperson" it would seem prudent to explore where there might be some option of affiliating with an astro society beyond what you describe and still have a retail business. The society could provide much of that consultation, rentals etc, and send whoever wants their own gear your way. Not sure whether this model could result in FTE employment for yourself or others though.

I thought most of those campaigns are more like "buy Australian made", are they not?

[Stonius]

When you factor in the exchange rate and shipping, typically the modest saving is not worth the risk. If there's anything wrong you will need to ship it back, typically at your own expense. Not to mention the additional time and heartache, and lack of someone you can actually call for advice/support. I still use Bintel even though they're not in Melbourne anymore because they give good advice and have the gear I want. Not to say I wouldn't go elsewhere for other bits and pieces they don't carry, but just saying good service goes a long way when you are trying to integrate new purchases into an existing system.

Markus

[Camelopardalis]

Which was kind of my point :lol:

The exchange rate isn't THAT good (although it's better right now than it has been for a good while, don't expect it to last!), and international shipping is usually far from cheap. Then you have to factor in GST when it arrives...

[kittenshark]

At first I thought so, but the numbers just don't tip in your favour. The audiences that clubs have is no where near the reach you get from advertising. I'm doing the club things mostly because I care about the club and they've helped me grow as an astronomer so it's my chance to give back. We send our customers to clubs so that they can get more experience and hands-on instruction on how to use their equipment at dark skies.

There are campaigns to shop local business; there's a sticker on our door to encourage people to shop local small businesses. I try to do so myself when I can afford it.

[kittenshark]

That was my original point.

Just be careful with calculating all these if you want to import yourselves! Some people just don't know how to do their sums correctly. If you use currency conversion calculators' exchange rate, bare in mind that is is the "mid-market" rate, and your bank or paypal will have a different rate, which you won't see the actual cost until it shows up on your bank statement.

Don't forget you're not only buying and paying for a product, you're paying for a service and for the support, and for them to keep a physical storefront open (sometimes). Do you really want to deal with the joys of AusPost if you can help it? When something comes in from overseas, guess who delivers it unless it's a big courier company like fedex or DHL (which is expensive)?

[Peter Ward]

I have found some of Bintel's pricing to actually be cheaper that that in the USA. Case in point, I took a drive down to OPT and bought a TeveVue barlow.

The currency conversion on my Mastercard, plus Californian state tax made it more expensive than the local price!

Many local businesses are also asked to support local Astro-community events...which my business has done over the years.

That said, I was crest-fallen after donating a not inexpensive autoguider for a well known event. We never found out who won it etc. or a thank you from the winner.

Suffice to say, we were not sponsors the following year.

[kittenshark]

Peter--I think I know who won it. Actually I think I have it as part of the club equipment and it's in my living room in a box! If we're talking about the same event, suffice to say, we got very poor treatment as well and we're not sponsoring ever again. When we raised a stink after suspecting that the value of the items donated far exceeded the money raised from the event, asked them to to tell us how much money they managed to raise, they rudely said none of your business, laughed at us and said if we told other sponsors about our experience, "the other sponsors are gonna laugh at you!" quote-unquote. If it was indeed your guider, I'll make sure you'll get a thank-you from the club who won it. (PM me)

Well I have spoken and they're not laughing. They're appalled. I really know how that feels, Peter. (And that steams my clams even more than the strange customer.)

Our main duty as retailers to the local astro community is to provide good service and the best (realistic) price for astro stuff. We can't do that if we pour money into sponsorship that doesn't have a flow-on effect. Most clubs are understanding but some are just demanding and have a sense of entitlement.

update...
Speak of the devil... the guy that I was talking about (presumably) and came to buy a number of things from us just now including said Telrad. Had to explain our reason behind our pricing again, but I think after seeing the shop in person he was impressed at the range of stuff we had on display and that he could grab all the things he needed in one spot. :welcome:

[dreamstation]

I think you'll find a lot of the internet/overseas shoppers are more savvy than you give them credit for. You have the odd one slip through like the one described in the original post but with the internet and online shopping as accessible as it is today, it's quite easy for people to find out and know what is and is not a good deal. There are websites specifically designed to help shoppers get great deals locally and international, namely https://www.ozbargain.com.au which has saved me a small fortune.

The flashlight I mentioned in my previous post which was 50% cheaper from Amazon US than the local authorised dealer INCLUDED international shipping and currency conversion fees from my bank. That just goes to show how cheap the actual product was given how much more international shipping costs. Those kinds of savings can't be ignored.

Back when our dollar was at parity with the USD, I had bought tyres from the US which were pretty bloody expensive to get shipped over here, but in the end they saved me $150 PER TYRE than if I had bought them locally, even with the expensive shipping.

Yes, this thread is about Astronomy gear but the same principle applies everywhere.

[VPAstro]

I was in LA just before Christmas, and went to a telescope and camera store. It was a pretty small shop, but they also run a big online store. I could not believe the prices. I wish I had more money to spend. I did however pick up an Orion ST80 with dovetail bar and rings for $109.00 usd. This was not a sale price, but the usual price. Even when converted to aud, it was still 50% cheaper than in Australia. I was impressed..

[raymo]

That's not so amazing, I got my SW ST80 with finder, 10 and 25 EPs, tube
rings, and AZ3 tripod for AU$199. from BTOW in Perth.
raymo

[janoskiss]

I did not realise Bintel Melbourne have closed. :( That was the only walk-in store in Melbourne I used to be confident enough in to send interested first-time scope buyers to.

[MattT]

It was just an observation. To me the title would have been more appropriate if Bintel was left out of it....It steams my Clams when someone complains about Australian prices....that's the topic.

Its not Australian prices, its the manufactures prices that get me...TV for instance.

Most of the bits I want to buy I can't get in Oz so I go online.

Who was that said...If you don't advertise a terrible thing happens....nothing.

So go right ahead and advertise....just be upfront about it.

:thanx:

[GeoffW1]

"It steams my clams"

I'd like to see that (rof rof)

No argument with your argument tho

Cheers

[janoskiss]

Better steamed than raw. Prefer them cooked in white wine & olive oil though with a generous helping of finely chopped of parsley.

Dealers should take responsibility. Blaming the customers for buying elsewhere and business failing to succeed is poor form.

That said, those of us (customers) who know better and know about good honest and valuable local vendors should make an effort to inform newcomers and also to highlight the benefits of buying locally (by "locally" I mean not from overseas; in Melbourne that's pretty much all it can mean now).

My main advice to AU buyers is to make an effort to contact AU dealers, talk to them on the phone or converse via email. Don't just do window shopping online. There are some very knowledgeable & helpful vendors out there and a retailer who is on the ball will be able to get a lot of gear for you cheaper than you're able to get it from overseas. Some of these guys cannot keep their websites constantly up-to-date because that too costs time and money. Contacting dealers is the best way to suss them out and to find the best deal. Also, there is something to be said for a productive mutually beneficial long term relationship with your fave vendors.

[el_draco]

I rate service above cost and Bintel has always provided excellent service. I buy locally when I can get what I want. We may pay a premium in relation to volume and warrantee, but trying to do a return overseas is somewhat challenging.

[kittenshark]

Bintel is our main competition.

Just the one customer complained about our prices--fine. Yes, we are more expensive, but when we explain things, they understand then make the decision based on what they can afford.

Just the one weird guy on Friday went on to bash Bintel for their prices and saying we (as local shops) were all causing problems for customers etc etc. It's already very hard to do so to match Bintel. We have some things cheaper, we have some things more expensive, but I tend to like paying my bills on time, thank you.

And it turns out the item he wanted is cheaper to get locally.

It's these weirdos that are annoying. Things look so cheap when they're on a overseas site in US dollars.

janokiss has good advice when buying either locally or overseas--if you're not sure, ASK. If buying overseas, ASK your bank what their exchange rate is and any fees involved, ASK the dealer what their international shipping policy is, and ASK the dealer what their warranty service is for overseas customers. Then, finally, ask yourself it it's worth it. If it is, go for it!

We may not be able to lower our prices on one item, but we could sweeten the deal with additional products that we can afford to discount on. You might find out that the thing you were after might have a cheaper alternative. There often is. :welcome:

[janoskiss]

I should have also added that vendors need to be aware that more and more people prefer to shop using nothing more than their mouse or touchscreen. Even if you cannot afford to set up and maintain online shop that caters for this crowd, you need to have something to convince them to fire off an email, pick up the phone or go to your shop. Stuff like "Call for best price" does not cut it.

For someone like me, who's been into the hobby for over a decade it does not matter. I will contact you if I am looking for something because I'm a professional amateur :P. But newcomers need extra incentives to make them lift a finger beyond what's required to push a pointer around on their computer/tablet screen. What that incentive should be I have not the foggiest. :ashamed:

I think there is a shift in culture in this modern age where people are more reluctant to engage one-on-one. They'd rather interact with a website than the person selling the goods. It's sad but I think it's true. :(

[lazjen]

Steve (janoskiss), I think you're right. There are some real factors though why people are doing things more online, less 1-to-1, etc. Some of it is just pure necessity - it's easier to jump on the computer at night instead of trying to phone or get to a place during the day, especially if you work.

As for sending an email, I know that at times I'm reluctant. Partly because if I change my mind I feel as if I've wasted the other person's time (and I know how important that is in a business). The other is that it can be really random the responses you get, if at all.

I think these days you do have to keep your website(s) up to date more effectively, and find an efficient way to do it. After all, surely it's got to be easier to allow customers to see the "best" information rather than potentially repeat it in multiple emails?

[N1]

It's not without irony that those customers who might benefit from consultation most also appear to be the ones that need most convincing to go to an actual shop and get some personal advice.:shrug:

[janoskiss]

@N1 It's a fairly ubiquitous pattern, e.g., students who don't show up to the tutorial classes at uni are the ones that need them most; or drivers who voluntarily take defensive driving courses are probably already safer drivers than most etc.

[VPAstro]

Thanks pretty good Raymo. When I was looking for the Orion guide scope package, the cheapest I could find in Australia was $349Aud. So I thought $109 USD was pretty good... Good that I was over there at the time and able to carry it back in my carry on...

[raymo]

Yes, US$109 was pretty good. In my case I guess Keith must have been overstocked at the time.
raymo

[inertia8]

If within reason I buy locally or if service is above and beyond etc and the markup isn't 2-3 times what I can get it for from overseas.

I tend to buy most of my car servicing parts from overseas as I'd be unable to afford to own and keep the cars in top condition if using local suppliers. Simple things like one of the rubber gasket for a timing cover on my 1991 Toyota.. $6.35us v $34.70au.. Even the US price is pushing it for what it is, as its a tiny piece of formed rubber, not even the main timing cover gasket.. "Oh it has to come from Japan, 4-6wks" they say as to why its expensive... Yeah well my USA supplier has to get it from Japan too... But he isn't gouging me on price and its only 2wks from Japan to USA to me... Must be more containers leaving for USA they can put it on...

[jeff65]

Few make the connection but largely this is a direct consequence of Australia's high real estate prices compared to elsewhere. The shop owner has to pay for retail space, the distributor for warehouse space and every employee is paying rent or a mortgage.

[kittenshark]

I actually don't mind so much the customers complaining about our prices. I know we can be more expensive.

But when they try to knock someone like Bintel who already have reasonable prices for a shop that does have a shopfront... who have the expertise and go the extra mile... I feel like making a clam chowder in addition to steaming my clams.

As I said before, our economy here is different from that in the US. We have a smaller population, smaller population density, and thus our market is small and sometimes the only way to make up for the finite market is to put a higher margin on the prices. If you got a shop in a major US city like LA, NY, etc. you have a huge market, as well as lots of competition.

I did notice something about buying habits of beginners: the majority of newbies who visit us (or call us), the first thing they say is, "I saw on your website..." and then they ask us to show them and if it's the right scope for them. So for a major portion of our customers, we need both the website and storefront and many online sellers don't have that.

They need a lot of hand-holding, reassurance, that it is the right scope/thing for them. The storefront adds that little bit of confidence. The savvy ones already know what they want and the only thing we can do is to make sure we've got most things they need in stock so we become their one-stop shop if they need to grab a bunch of things before they rush out to their dark sky weekends. That's the crowd we are catering too. If we just focus on price strategy, it can be a losing battle because there will always be someone cheaper than you, especially if they're selling something as a loss leader (below cost) or clearing out.

Our website is fully functional, and works nicely on mobile phones, and I definitely see an increase in online purchases. I'm very introverted myself; I'd rather shop online, but I do like going to a proper shop too because it's just a matter of buyer confidence.

I notice that I pay more attention to my buying habits after taking over a retail shop--like I mentioned before I got into marine aquariums. I source my stuff in a variety of online stores, but I love window shopping for the fish, and going to the local aquarium shops for advice, or just to chat about the hobby. Many do ship, and I did order livestock online, especially if it's something rare. Some things are really overpriced here, so I did go buy some equipment from overseas. There were downsides to it when I had to use international power adapters for everything (they did include one) and it looks worse than an imaging train! But... the one thing I never did was to try to beat down the local retailer for their prices because I know the running costs of a storefront, and the fact that I can just walk in and walk out with the thing I need right away is a service that commands a premium price.

Actually, I did come across some really interesting stats while doing some research: http://blog.snakkmedia.com/aussies-turn-to-smartphones-and-tablets-for-shopping/



That's a huge shift in the buying habits of our customers. But that said...

Once we had a guy who could only correspond to us by snail mail. He had no telephone line or internet line and saw our ad in a magazine.

[kittenshark]

Actually, I do see a lot of connection. That's why I'm eager to move to a warehouse... still, you can't really get rent cheaper than $30,000 a year in our area for the minimum you need to run a LAS. :sadeyes:

High rentals and high labour costs... that's what's pushing retail prices up for every industry. Rent and wages are the highest risk to shops.

[janoskiss]

Back in the 1990s and early 2000s there were a fair few retailers cashing in on people's ignorance and ripping customers off (and there still are, but it's becoming a lot harder for them: a lot fewer suckers left in our information age).

A lot of people realised that once Internet access and online presence of international retailers became commonplace, and have been left with a sour taste and ill will towards local dealers. :fight: Paying 3-4x markup was not uncommon. I'm sure I could still find the odd camera shop where such outrageous prices persist though probably no telescope shop can get away with that any more.

Having hosted a lot of public astro events, I could have sold my 10" Saxon Dob many times for a couple of grand to people looking through it for the first time. They'd often ask me how much the telescope costs and expect to hear a figure in the $5-10k range. (Sometimes they hesitate and think it rude to ask but ask anyway.) When I tell them it was $800 they sometimes don't believe me. So it'd be very easy to con uninformed enthusiastic first timers. You just need the charming salesman act and be a slimy opportunist with no conscience. :mad2:

@Cheryl-Ann It sounds like you're running a tight ship and doing all the right things for your business and your customers. We need a shop like yours in Melbourne. It'd be nice for me to have a friendly shop around but more so for all the people I meet, who are eager to get started.

(I've contemplated starting my own retail outlet, and I would if not for lack of capital. Had a dream of a cafe / bar / live music venue + astro shop with observatory on the roof and nightly sidewalk astronomy in one of the northern boho suburbs.
:rockband: :cheers: :painting: :astron: I have plenty experience with most of that already except the buying and selling gear and making any money bit - ie the hard bit. I think I'd be bad at that though. I'd need to partner up with or hire someone with business smarts.)

Best wishes for you and your enterprise. Hope you have lots of success and that the 20" SW will be worth the effort. ;)
:ship2:

[kittenshark]

I've seen the cafe/astro shop done before (our store used to have a coffee shop attached to it years ago before we took over), and it is a LOT of work, and that coffee shop venture failed. When Astro Pete started doing his food service (in addition to coffee) the one of the things he told me on day one of said food service was "I'm regretting it already!". The food's great, but when your focus is split between two things, it's very, very hard to please everyone. Who do you serve first if two customers came in at the same time: The hungry customer who wants to order $5 plate of chips and can't wait 5 minutes longer, or the one who has $500 in his pocket and needs an hour of your time to coach him through the buying process of a scope, and you have competitors nearby in both industries that specialise in what they do... you're likely to lose either one or both of those customers. You can't ignore one because both customers are important. In their mind they're both just as important as the other so in your mind they should be too.

In some ways it's not rocket science, but a degree in business, lots of start-up capital, and plenty of common sense helps. I don't want to crush your dreams, though, just a few months ago I never thought I'd be able to to do it myself! If you think Melbourne has a need for a brick and mortar store and you're the one with the resources for it, go for it!

I know what you mean by excited newbies... I did a lot of public outreach too (still do when I have the time) and they're always surprised at the prices of new scopes. Lots of things are mass market now so they're so much cheaper than say, 10 years ago. But I still cannot in my right conscience charge them the price they want to pay if it's not a reasonable price... because sooner or later they will find out. And if they do, they'll never come back to buy accessories or their second scope from you.

And then, there's Australian Geographic... :eyepop:

[janoskiss]

I've seen and helped make the bar/cafe/restaurant/astro/music venue thing happen before numerous times but it's always been a volunteer/community effort and very much not for profit (only the venue owners, all friends, hopefully made enough to pay the rent that week, pay core staff, maybe take a few $s home).

It's easy to get carried away on great nights like that where everyone is ecstatic and telling you you should "turn professional" etc. Doing something for a living is very different to doing it for fun when one feels like it.

Feel free to crush my dreams because they do need culling. I have dreams enough to keep a guy busy for 10+ lifetimes but I only have (with a bit of luck) about half a lifetime left until the lease runs out on this human shell.

AG: Don't even go there. I mean that quite literally for everyone.

[Nikolas]

It's a catch 22 however, everything has risen, especially services such as electricity and Gas and insurance well beyond the CPI yet our pay is still not enough to cover all of this.
Unfortunately to blame it on high wages is a furphy as we need to high wages in order just to make ends meet due to corporations making a massive profit to appease their shareholders.
It really peeves me when people blame labor costs when labor costs are just enough to pay the mortgage, pay insurance water, bills rent food etc. If there is anything left then we spend it on luxury goods which are overpriced in Australia.
Lower the cost of electricity, insurance gas water etc.
When corporations make billions and pay bugger all tax and they blame the average worker because their labour cost is high is laughable. We need higher wages just to get by!!!!

[DorkSlayer]

Please accept my sincerest apologies for causing you so much inconvenience. I can only but imagine how it must feel when a customer complains that prices are too high. I consider myself extremely fortunate to have been spared such a traumatic experience.

Rest easy, we're here to help you!!! When these troublesome customers come to see us, we will do all we can to spare you from their complaining. Have a nice day :)

[Tejas]

in terms of this line: "...but don't get me started on people complaining to us about Astro Pete's prices and please please can we beat those prices?! How bout no?"

this is in part due to the big retailers such as officeworks, myer etc all having price match (or beat) policies. now i know your LAS isn't the same as these companies in terms of buying power but asking for a deal or price match is nothing to be steamed about. simply say no and move on.

for a purchase the size of the one i made for my first scope i'm going to see if i can get a deal.

when i brought it, it was a significant investment for me. my budget was around $1K but any money saved under this was able to be used for accessories and perhaps even a little treat for my wife.

i did a ton of research online. checked the sites of sirius and bintel, as well as Australian geographic and astro petes.

petes was the cheapest - by around $100. this is a significant amount of money to me. as a student at the time every cent counts.

i was also able to bring my scope to his shop on a viewing night and get tons of help there as well.

this is not an advertisment for pete, just me taking about my personal situation.

[kittenshark]

As a matter of fact Pete, we do! I've just given directions to a customer today to find you regarding a 8" dob. They're up here anyway so why not shop around? You're welcome.

They usually come back down to get accessories from us after they get their scope anyway so it's good for both shops.

More money in accessories than in scopes anyway!

Say hi to Bonnie for me; I miss her food.

[kittenshark]

We can occasionally match prices within reason, but when you're talking about us matching prices of an overseas supplier that ends up being our cost price or a few dollars above it, then no, which is the problem I'm bringing up in this thread.

If you want a good deal with most retailers, ask for a discount when you get a bunch of other accessories. It's usually more realistic.

[atalas]

Well,I must say, I've never been one to complain about prices to my local telescope shop and I would hate for them to close down(bintel)but, I don't see how back stabbing custermers on a public forum is good for business.

Shopped at bintel for many years and never once have I ever heard them complain about difficult custermers....guess some are more professianal than others.

[issdaol]

Every time I see this thread it I have to wonder.....:question:

I'm sure others may choose to disagree....but the title of the thread seems so stilted that it comes across as forced/contrived......

For what reason I ask ..... :question:

I have dealt with Bintel and other local suppliers as well as international suppliers....I have to say I have not heard many people out there complain to other suppliers about Bintel pricing.

Having owned my own retail business that did well in the past....I certainly did not get all up in arms if customers came to me and complained about my competitions pricing....in fact I was usually similar and sometime more expensive....

When you go into retail business with a shop front any savvy businessperson has done their market research and knows their competitive advantages, knows their overheads and costs and accepts the ups, downs, competition and attendant risks &/or benefits.

I think this thread is more about self promotion and self justification than any real concern about "Someone" complaining about Bintel's prices ;)

[glend]

It would be nice if they (Bintel) actually have things in stock. Twice in the last six months i have ordered gear and then silence. When i eventually ring i find out they are out of stock. Is it really too much trouble to let people know that when we order, or better yet put a stock indicator on each item like almost every major overseas retailer does. In my view they are 'too comfortable' with the status quo and need a shakeup.

[GTB_an_Owl]

why don't you just "ring" in the first place Glen?


geoff

[bugeater]

I've been buying stuff on the internet for at least 15 years now and the local stores always have the same arguments. But they never look at themselves.

In the r/c planes/helis area they were so far behind the technology you were forced to import. Then when they started to stock the newer products, the pricing was massively inflated, plus they knew nothing about the products. It didn't help that almost universally the owners of these stores were incredibly unpleasant people to deal with. Unsurprisingly, I continued to import most stuff.

But what was particularly interesting was that the one local store with very low prices seemed to do a roaring trade. He was even okay to deal with. I'd buy there because I could look at the product and have it that day. Even if it cost a bit more than importing. I don't know if his wholesale costs were lower, but he was clearly playing a low margin, high volume game and completely out-competed the other local stores.

[Nikolas]

Not everyone has time to call.

[troypiggo]

Couldn't find time in 6 months of waiting for a 5 minute phone call? But has time to make a post here about it? :)

[Tinderboxsky]

I agree.

Steve

[Nikolas]

I don't need to call, what's your point?

[troypiggo]

Chill. Was referring to someone else. :)

[Nikolas]

Then maybe refer to them instead? hence the confusion :thumbsup:

[dpastern]

I guess it comes down to price. Non Astro related, but I wanted a book on a '46 luftwaffe plane. Amazon had it new for USD $80 shipping immediately (about $30 USD shipping on top of that). Dymocks Australia wanted AUD $240! And, didn't stock it. And would take around 6 weeks to get the book into their warehouse to ship to me. And then wanted to charge me around AUD $30 for shipping on top of their inflated price. I sent their customer service team an Email asking if they could match the US price etc and never got a reply. Yeah...so...

With another hobby of mine (Hi Fi), local distributors are MOSTLY a huge rip off with price raking extraordinaire!

I love to support local Australian business and will do so wherever possible. Even if their prices are higher than what I can get from overseas, if it's close, I'll go with the local retailer even if I'm losing out a few $.

Years back I was talking to retailer about a Canon EOS 500mm f4.5 lens. He clearly told me that Canon Australia jacked the price up and I was far better to buy from B&H NY and privately import it to Australia. Canon Australia has now fixed price parity issues and local businesses are now more competitive in this respect thankfully.

Regional distributors are simply a means and a way to rip off local customers. Like with blu ray region coding...(HD DVD didn't have any region coding but guess what, the movie studios boycotted it making it a dead format, in favour of blu ray which guess what, did feature region coding). Market collusion but no government punished these big manufacturers and movie studies did they...so, as a consumer, I tend to look out for #1 unless local business can be competitive.

As an aside, I've always found Bintel's prices competitive and their service and support excellent. I'm not a big spender, but I've spent a little bit of money with them over the years ;-) i can't vouch for other retailers in Australia though.

[dpastern]

Nicely said Troy. Some people need to help themselves before they expect others to help them...

[bugeater]

Help themselves?

The very fact the suggestion is that you should have to ring to check stock levels indicates a pretty serious deficiency in the retailer relative to most others out there. At least relative to the online retailers I've ever dealt with (which are mostly not in the astronomy space to be fair).

[Kunama]

I would think it would be logical to call and check. Seems to me everyone these days has a mobile and most people are on them all day long, especially the younger users.

I would rather the store not indicate stock than to indicate that they have them but when you order something you get a reply saying there will be a delay.
I called Bintel a few days ago about a Delos, it was in stock and as a result of me calling it was in the post that day.....

[bugeater]

Well I assure you, isn't the norm and doesn't need to. Most online retailers get it right. Probably because those that don't, go out of business. I think they get away with it in astronomy because it's such a small market and most of the Australian retailers seem to behave the same way or worse.

[Stonius]

Why would you rather vendors *not mention if they have stock? That makes zero sense to me and nixes the convenience of online ordering if you then have to call as well. Might as well just order over the phone.

[Kunama]

My experience has been the opposite, many traders who show items in stock do not actually hold stock but order it in from an Australian warehouse. Even OPT and Telescope Express have contacted me subsequent to an online order to advise that items were not actually in stock.

I prefer to remove any doubt by personal contact with the seller, especially in a fringe activity like astronomy where the proprietors often work with few staff and haven't the time to continually update websites.

This has the added benefit of establishing 'good will' with a trader. For example, my many communications with Claude at AEC have resulted in him often sending me new items (Tak scopes, eyepieces etc) before any payment by me. :thumbsup:

[julianh72]

+1

If you're going to have an internet store, you need to back it up with accurate real-time stock levels, and a prompt reply service indicating the order status, estimated time of delivery, etc. That's how shopping on the Internet is supposed to work, and if you can't get the basics right, don't expect customers who had a disappointing first experience to come back, because there are plenty of e-retailers who can get it right!

(By the way - this is not aimed at Bintel - I've made several very happy on-line purchases with them. However, one "bricks and mortar" telescope shop, whose location and identity I choose to not divulge, gave abysmal after-market service on a significant purchase - I won't be going back.)

[Steffen]

An online store that indicates stock levels, or alternatively delivery times, as well as shipping cost to me before checkout will get my business any day over one that doesn't.

I will simply pass on those that display "call" instead of prices or delivery times, or that hide the shipping cost until well after they've collected all my contact info.

[Kunama]

Hi Markus,
I think you should read my post again, you quote only half of my sentence thus changing the intended meaning.:thumbsup:

[raymo]

I have also made several purchases from Bintel, and been happy, but the
emailed invoice I received for my latest purchase showed a "grand total"
of the price + gst, but no mention of the shipping charge, of which I remained
ignorant until I looked at the invoice that came with the item. This stinks;
raymo

[Stonius]

Hey there. I thought I edited it for brevity, but given your post I thought maybe I should read it again, and I have to admit, I'm still not sure how I misconstrued your meaning. The first sentence I cut merely noted that everyone has mobiles. The second mentioned your experience with Bintel and your Delos.

Maybe you could tell me what I'm missing?

[Nikolas]

^^^this^^^

[The_bluester]

I would agree with that last. An online store that displays "Call" for prices and availability is only one step ahead of those dopey websites (And there were some major bricks and mortar Aus retailers who used to do this quite recently, some still do) which when you click on "Products" or similar, instead of actually showing you that, show a PDF of the latest junk mail catalog (Remember those)

IMO a well sorted web store should be live stock wise and the back office function of the physical store itself should support that. If you have to book stock in to one system as you receive it, then go update the web store with what you just did to keep it up to date, you are handing over a competitive advantage to those stores who have it right. You get twice as many opportunities to cock up data entry for one thing (And have to pay someone to do it twice) and if selling the last of an item over the counter does not update in the web store to show it out of stock, then it is just trouble brewing.

[DarkKnight]

I've flicked through this thread, probably missed some salient bits, like kittenshark's web address, but the overall theme seems to be lack of 'in your face' disclosure by retailers.

The term 'Caveat emptor' comes to mind, 'let the buyer beware'. Now I may be a bit old fashioned here, but I believe that 'due diligence', as a buyer, is not only your responsibility, but also plain old common sense.

I sometimes buy from overseas, but only after I've checked the exchange rate, the freight cost, and whether the item attracts GST. Most websites have a link for checking the freight cost to your location.

As a general rule I will pay the higher local cost for an item that has a motor, or a PCB in it, for peace of mind, and return freight costs, that only a local warranty gives.

If possible I will buy from a "B&M' store, although they are being decimated by the buying power of the online competitors.

I'm in the throes of purchasing a new HEQ5 Pro mount. I shopped around for prices then phoned my local retailer, Survey and Instrument Specialist in Newcastle, told them what I wanted and disclosed that I'd looked at prices online. Without asking, they matched the best online price and got my order.

For me, win, win ,win! I've injected some money into the local economy, will be dealing 'face to face', and if I have problems I'm not faced with exorbitant return costs.

Dealing locally doesn't have to be rocket science. Give it a try, you may be pleasantly surprised.

Oh, and as I live in a small town about 160k's from Sydney, most of my purchases are online, sight unseen, as I don't have the luxury of being able to drop into the local retailer, pick their brains, and then chase the best price online.

At least give the local sellers a go. :)

[multiweb]

In a perfect world (alternate universe) every online store gives you an accurate representation of their physical stock as well as an exact dollar amount and exact delivery time right down to the second from their store to your door.

On our planet, life is such that electronic stock and physical stock rarely match, shipping and delivery companies are many, delivery cost can be per volume, weight and many other way to quantify a shipment, delays and day to day unseen problems, dependancies on suppliers and third party contractors are part of running any business.

So in short, it is quite complicated to programmatically calculate shipping fees because there is no consitency out there. This is why shipping is usually not included in a quote or final amount. It is calculated separately.

Unless you're a big mob like amazon or ali baba and do your shipping in house.

As far as availability goes any business will say it is in stock then sort it out for the customer as best as they can as not to lose a sale. This is standard procedure.

[raymo]

I would still like to know the shipping cost before the item is shipped, so
that if I think it is unreasonable I can cancel the purchase, or at least discuss
it with the retailer.
raymo

[multiweb]

The only way to do this is to get your delivery address then if the business uses always the same shipping companies each will have rate tables based on volumes, weight and/or quantities. It is a lot of processing to do and not necessarily acurate. An email or phone call is easier.

[raymo]

I have in the last three weeks or so sold and posted/freighted about
75 items ranging from my HEQ5 and my 8" Newt, to very small items
such as filters. All the small items under 500grams cost the same to post
in prepaid satchels; all items that are under 3kg and will fit in the
appropriate satchel cost the same, and all items that are under 5kg, and
will fit in the even larger satchel, cost the same. These three weight ranges
will cover a very sizeable proportion of items sold by a typical astro store.
In every case I was able to inform the buyer of the postal cost before
shipping the item. Even with the mount and scope, once I knew the dimensions of the boxes I was able to calculate the freight cost online in a couple of minutes, so the buyer could decide whether the purchase was viable or not.
The item I just bought weighed far less than 500grams, and was small, so
would have attracted a standard postal charge.
raymo

[codemonkey]

Aus Post also offers an API so that software systems can calculate postage charges given sufficient information (weight, dimensions, locations etc).

I haven't checked, but I'd be surprised if couriers didn't offer similar systems.

It's not only doable, but this is becoming expected and companies that can't offer things like this will lose business to those that can.

I don't order from places that don't offer this kind of service (along with actual stock availability) unless I can't find anywhere else to order from.

What really gets me is when you place an order for something worth several thousand dollars, get an automated email and then eventually (after maybe a week) you email the company and they tell you it's not in stock. That's not acceptable service imo.

[Nikolas]

Or when they don't reply to your email.

[multiweb]

Ah....yes, I almost forgot. The mighty API solves everything :lol:

[Nikolas]

New case in point regarding local sellers
Bintel offer the orion fliptop diagonal for $269
As far as I could search this is the only retailer in oz that sell them, not in stock and overpriced.
I have purchased the skywatcher version from a british astroshop for $125 delivered (Exchange with Brexit has helped)
This is what steams my clams

[julianh72]

I understand your frustration, but instances like this don't "steam my clams".

As has been pointed out in this thread and elsewhere, it costs real money to manage a "bricks and mortar" store, and when you are dealing with a low-volume speciality business (such as astro-gear), those costs can translate into high mark-ups being required on some items. Add to this the vagaries of exchange rate variation, inventory costs versus the costs of bringing in special orders, etc, and it's no surprise to see some items being priced competitively with overseas sources, while others can cost 2x, 3x or more than the overseas competition.

I will always try to support local businesses where practical, but I will only pay "so much" extra to support them. "How much" extra depends on how much I am spending overall, how quickly I want to get it in my hands, and how likely I think I am to want / need after-sales support.

When I am shopping on the internet for anything at all, I always check my local "bricks and mortar" stores (e.g. Astro Pete and Sirius Optics) first, as well as any other Australian suppliers (e.g. Bintel), and overseas suppliers.

If the item is one where warranty / after-sales support is an important factor, I will probably accept the higher local price and buy locally. (If i am buying from overseas, I generally assume that warranty / after-sales service will be hard to access, if not non-existent. Even if an international warranty is available, the costs of shipping can make it an impractical proposition in many cases.)

For smaller purchases, if my local store has the item in stock, and their price is competitive (within a few dollars / percent say), they will get my business straight away. If they don't have the item in stock, I will order from elsewhere, rather than placing an order with an open-ended delivery time. If they are a bit more expensive, and I am really keen to get the item, they will probably still get my business. If they are a lot more expensive, I don't try to twist their arm to price-match (even if their price seems to be absurdly high in comparison with offshore pricing) - I just buy it from overseas and wait for it to arrive.

I don't know whether the local stores think my buying practices are "fair and reasonable" - but that's the reality of shopping in the global internet marketplace.

[Nikolas]

269 as opposed to 125 is still a large discrepancy. In this case the wallet talks.