Should be ashamed

[scopey]

Hi
I am a member of the Geelong Astro club. A married couple came in to get help to set their newly acquired saxon 4" reflector colomated and to be shown how to use the equatorial mount. I successfully trued the optics, but the mount was another story. It was the worst example of engineering I have seen so much so that I told her she would have to get another mount if she had any hope of using the instrument. The person who sold this thing to them (who shall remain nameless)should be ashamed of themselves. This is just the thing that frustrates people out of the hobby,they said to me that they were not able to find anything with it-any wonder.:mad2:
Scopey

[DIYman]

Could not agree more. Two months ago I was asked by a family friend to help a friend of theirs to 'adjust' their newly bought 100mm reflector. These people had no idea but bought this thing on impulse from one of those franchised camera shops. It was complete rubbish. The secondary was facing 90 degrees from the focuser. The adustment screws sheared off when I tried to loosen them which was bit embarassing for me. There is no happy ending to this story. The people did not take this too kindly and and grabbed the scope and left no doubt blaming me for what happened. Never again will I allow myself be put in such a situation.

[robz]

Ditto here.
In my case, I bought a 5.1 inch Celestron Astromaster newtonian(parabolic mirror) for next to nothing.
After collimating it, first light on planets was pretty dissapointing. The optics proved to be of low quality and were only good for low power wide field views...........just!

For what it cost new it's not going to get anyone serious in getting in to Astronomy excited..........quite the reverse.

[LewisM]

Was GIVEN a 70mm "Bushmaster" or something generic Chinese POOR knock-off refractor. Really sub-basement level quality - absolute worst POS I have ever used (the Aldi mini-Dob is MUCH better!). The guy had given up on astronomy and had seen me using my stuff in the driveway and came and left it on my doorstep one day.

I gave it to my father so his second wife's kids could use it.

IT was truly a case of wasted resources being used to make a bit of money, like so muchof the cheap chinese junk.

[TechnoBill]

I think Scopey raises an important issue. In that the person that sold this to them new it was sub par (Junk), but that never stopped them from selling it to them anyway.
Its something I guess that plagues all industries nowadays, it can be difficult for beginners to sort the wheat from the chaff. It is especially sad for people that don't have lots of spare cash to go through the "Trial and Error" stage :confused2:.

TechnoBill

[issdaol]

As Bill say's this type of behavior is not just confined to the Astro industry.

However it is still deplorable when you see innocent beginners (or anyone) taken advantage of in this manner. Especially if the perpetrator is someone knowledgeable and thus has the choice to advise honestly and openly but chooses to do the opposite.

Unfortunately no one ever exposes these people openly which results in this type of thing continuing and expanding.

[chiaroscuro]

Sure, the Chinese might make some junk, but they also make some bloody good stuff too.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Too right Luke. I have a Williams Optic FLT110 and an Astrotech 65EDQ, both made in China, as far as I am aware, and both are excellent scopes. But, the WO FLT110 wasn't on the cheap end though, at $2,500 landed.

However, at $579 the AT65EDQ has to be the best value scope I have ever bought. It is a great little wide field performer, even considering its modest price. It certainly surprised me, as I didn't think it would be as good as it is. I bought it for low power, wide field use, but when pushing the power a bit, last night in really good seeing, at a dark site, it still performed excellently, far better than I would have expected, considering its modest price. Its build quality is also excellent too. I love this little scope, it is certainly an "over achiever". :lol:

Yes, there is a lot of rubbish coming out of China, often built to a price, not quality. The Chinese can build quality, it just costs more.

Cheers Pete

[Stardrifter_WA]

Hi Phil,

It isn't always that simple. Often, sales people come and go regularly and they are not given the training required. I was contracted, at one point, to deliver training in telescopes, and basic astronomy, for a store in Perth, due to my background in the optical industry, and because I am a qualified trainer. The lack of basic knowledge is surprising, even in simple concepts. I currently work in education, as a trainer, so I am aware of some of these problems.

I used to work in the astro industry, a long time ago now, and when I pointed out why people had to pay more, the customer was often not willing to do so. Period! They just thought I was trying to up sell them. It was also surprising that people thought that magnification was the most important factor and when you tried to educate them otherwise, they simply didn't believe you. It is not what they have seen, written on the box, in department stores, so I must be lying, as if these department store must know the truth.

Because I refused to deal in the cheap stuff, I would send them to another store, with the clear warning that they wouldn't get what they pay for, and to make sure that they can take it back if they are not happy.

Even despite the warnings, they still went ahead and bought the crap telescope, binoculars or microscope, and quite a few did come back to me when they realised that I was correct. In fact, a lot of my business was from these type of people, once they realised I was telling the truth and not just being a salesperson.

People simply don't trust salespeople, even if they are telling the truth. So, the situation is often more complex than it seems, and it is easy to pass judgement.

I have also been involved in customer service training and some people just don't get it, no matter how much you train them. :sadeyes: And these are the people expected to sell stuff. Because I am acutely aware of this, I have seen some appalling customer service, and, on a number of occasions I have pointed this out to management, including in the astro area, and they don't care about it. Plenty more customers out there, apparently?

As dedicated amateurs, it is easy for us to be critical, as we have this knowledge. Often, because of high staff turnover, businesses cannot always afford the necessary training, to pay enough to employ knowledgeable staff, or, indeed, to keep them, as was my case, when I realised I was capable of earning much more doing other stuff; I moved on and out of sales, to earn more than I ever could in sales, particularly retail sales.

After all, the Latin "Caveat Emptor" still applies, and in many ways, more so now, given the easy access to information.

Cheers Pete

[issdaol]

Hi Bill,

Yes absolutely agree with what you have said.

I guess what I am trying to specifically point out is the cases where a salesperson knowledgeable/informed takes advantage of a customer who is relying on being given good advice/sold a reliable product.

If the costumer then chooses to go against good advice for whatever reason (time/money/???) at least then the fault lies in their court.

Cheers

[Wavytone]

To be honest this was always the case, even when i was a kid - stores selling "telescopes" that were essentially junk. Some examples I recall:

- "refractors" with a singlet lens and eyepiece also consisting of 1 lens...

- refractors with a stop inside the tube effectively limiting the aperture to a third of the actual lens aperture, one way to control the various aberrations (whole also cutting most of the light);

- uncoated lenses,

- mounts so rickety they could barely support their own weight, never mind hold a telescope in position or find anything,

- reflectors with spherical mirrors,

- huygens/ramsden eyepieces, or a "symmetrical" if you were lucky (!)

- as below, scopes assembled with components way out of their correct orientation/collimation,

- "finders" that are hopelessly inadequate; you could do better sighting down the side;

- eyepiece focal lengths hopelessly mismatched to the scope - usually exceedingly high magnifications that were impossible to use,

- a well known telescope brand widely known as "Trashco" figured prominently...

etc etc etc...

[scopey]

Hi all
I agree with all the posts, they probably got handed a sealed box. But the seller has been around for many years and should know what is in the box, they should have one on display so the buyer can get some idea what they are getting. Yes the Chinese do indeed make good stuff, but with the Chinese there are three tiers of quality the good, the bad, and the down right ugly. As always you get what you pay for.;) Scopey

[MortonH]

A few years I worked in a camera store over the Christmas period. A young woman and her parents came in and expressed an interest in one of the ubiquitous cheap "Tasco type" refractors promising 525x magnification, etc. I politely explained all the shortcomings of the package and ended up selling them a nice Nikon 80mm spotting scope that was on special.

A few days later they brought the Nikon back, complaining that the magnification was too low, couldn't see the flag on the moon, blah blah blah, and returned it in favour of the Tasco. I wonder how happy they were with it.

[AstralTraveller]

I've also looked like a goose because I couldn't get a carp-o-rama functioning. It was one of those newts with a built in barlow in the focusser (forgotten the name of the design). I've since found that they are a bugger to collimate and the fact that the secondary was not under the focusser and there was no suitable adjustment made it near impossible. Mrs Aspiring Astronomer rabbiting on non-stop in my ear about irrelevant subjects made it impossible.

A few times over the years I've had people express disappointment that they can't get a scope that will show them everything they want to see for $50. :screwy:



Well, I'm pretty sure they would have seen something waving about - no matter where they looked. :D

BTW my quick, dirty, back of envelope calculation shows you would need a mag of 112,000x to see a 1m flag on the moon assuming you eye's resolution is about 1 arc minute.

[LewisM]

Yes, hence why I said CHEAP Chinese junk. Their higher-echelon QC'd stuff is quite OK.


The low end stuff is just wasting and polluting this fine planet's natural resources.

[blink138]

just the devils advocate here.............. any retailer worth their salt are only giving people a choice
there is absolutely no background story here on how they ended up with a piece of crap!, perhaps that is what they asked for for all we know!
pat

[scopey]

Hi all
Any retailer worth their salt should have the knowledge to advise new people to the hobby about what works and what is absolute rubbish. There is nothing worse than getting the scope home and finding you can't see anything because the mount was unworthy of holding the scope still. That is why the people came to the club to get help,( I know, they should have came to us in the first place.) Not all retailers are tarred with the same brush, the retailer should ask the appropriate questions, like have you ever used a telescope before, how much money are you willing to spend. I'm sure most do, but there are some out there that are only interested in a sale. ;)
Scopey

[blink138]

still all conjecture really as the retailer is still nameless, if it was a national geographic then no sympathy, but if it was one on the right of this page then shameful!
ever been to specsavers for glasses?
pat

[scopey]

Hi all
Perhaps I should make myself a bit clearer, the retailer was a specialized astro shop. I will not name this business because I do not want to be sued. This business is not helping the newby's, I do understand that a business has to make a profit, but do not cut your nose of to spite your face. :rolleyes: Scopey