Roll off Roof automation help please

[Paul Haese]

Calling anyone who has automated their roll off roof. I am looking for info on suppliers and equipment used. I have contacted a few US firms that make the equipment. One (Pier tech) quoted me $9000 USD for motor, rake and pinion, control box and all electronics with software, which I just about laughed myself to death. Next a great bloke named Jim Collins makes the same sort of gear but relies on Fosters to supply the roof control box and software which was cheap. All up around $3500 delivered to Australia. However their gear runs at 60 hertz and our power systems run at 50 hertz, which means they will not work here from what I know (happy to be wrong here though).

So what I am looking for now is anyone who has done this here, what motors did you use? I am assuming rack and pinion design. What controller box and who made it? If you made it would you consider making one for me? What about scope park sensors and roof open and close sensors?

[bert]

I have put together a few ascom systems for roll off, but I designed and built the rooves to work with my controller, with that in mind, did you make your roof so it will miss the scope in any position?

It makes a huge difference if you did.

[Bassnut]

I agree with Brett. If you need to park before close things get complicated, eg what if the mount control crashes or loses power?

Also, auto close is a whole different thing to auto close and open. Auto close can be as simple as a rope and a truck wiper motor winding it up.

Sorry if you've mentioned this before, is the OBS in yr back yard, as in you can pull it open yrself when it gets dark, sleep and then auto close? . Or fully remote and far away?.

Just auto close is simple and cheap to knock up closing on a timer or rain ,AAG or Boltwood, directly, no reliance at all on a flakey PC :P. And if battery powered with a charger on it all the time,close on power loss.

I have tube video of my rope-windup-roof if you want to see how simple it can be.

Roof open and closed sensors can jus be micro switches at the limits, easy.

[Paul Haese]

Thanks Brett and Fred for you thoughts.

The scope needs to park before the roof closes. With the RC on board the mount and the TSA on top of that it needs to park first. I need to have a park sensor in place to prevent scope damage.

Fred, the scope is at a property I own south of Adelaide. We live in the city but it is an hours drive to the observatory and house. While I appreciate what you are saying about just closing I am keen on having full automation so that when we travel I can set the tasks for the scope via my planner and the observatory will open and image all night and close night after night.

I never an inkling for electronics and have only rudimentary knowledge of what is required to set up sensors and develop a control box, but I am keen to learn. Any advice would be appreciated. Any ideas would be investigated.

[Bassnut]

The need to park adds enormous complication and risk for full remote operation, and always PC control. You may want to think about this and modify if you can. It may well be cheaper. I'm only considering worst case scenario, rain and can't close because mount is not parked, unless you have fast emergency local help.

For full open-close automation I'd recommend Brett, he's done many installations. Don't attempt yourself simply because your not nearby to sort snafus out at short notice, it has to work every time.

[Bassnut]

I assume youve got an IP power board, thats pretty essential. In case not (you must have I guess, would be pretty hard to to power up-down without one :P ), Anyway,I use this http://www.scorptec.com.au/computer/38561-9258hp . Allows power control of everything over the net without the PC being involved (eg you can reset the PC :D).

[acropolite]

The IP switcher looks interesting Fred, I could do with another gadget...

I don't have any expertise with observatory automation but it might be worth considering a regular garage door (panel lift) opener for opening and closing, they work reliably for years on end and have limit switching and adjustable sensors for obstruction inbuilt. From memory they cost less around $500-$700 and both push and pull.

You could use something like a Zelio smart relay (http://www.schneider-electric.com/products/ww/en/2800-interface-measurement-control-relays/2810-automation-relays/531-zelio-logic/) or PLC to handle the opening and closing, house keeping & failsafe, that way you're not compromised if there's a PC failure (provided you can get the mount parked).

I use a Zelio smart relay in my roof space handling some simple functions, they're easily programmable from PC and (depending on the model) run with low voltage supplies, have timers, mutiple relays and analog inputs (e.g. for rain sensor, fail-safe for park detection etc). I notice that they have a GSM equipped model, could be useful if you're not net connected.

[Bassnut]

Funny you should say that Phil , the Zelio smart relay is exactly what I used in the last 2 projects :thumbsup:. Garage openers are fine too (and there control systems) , but being an industrial engineer I was comfortable and familiar with PLCs, and they are available off the self everywhere. They also interface well with off the shelf industrial drives, which was also important in the last projects.

[acropolite]

I was lucky enough to get my Zelio at a reduced price ($199) in an evaluation kit.

[Astroman]

Looking forward to what you come up with Paul. I will be using a Panelglide Optima motor on mine once I install it. Although not fully automated, what your doing sounds like a great idea.

[Star Hunter]

Paul,

When I designed the 6 meter sq. Nanango-TIE-QUT Observatory (NTQO) at my Stuart Range Obs. Ellesmere, Qld, back in 2002, we used an auto commercial sliding gate motor with R&P rack running in the middle of the 1 ton roof.

While the rack could have gone to one side of the roof, from model tests in the lab at QUT, we saw twisting inertia, so we went straight down the middle, under the roof.

The C14 parks to one side under the rack.

For opening and closing, we used a simple Day/night sensor. So when the skies got dark at sunset, the roof would opened at a predetermined time based on a Davis Vantage Pro weather station. If it was too dewy the roof wouldn't open. If there was too much cloud - 65% or more, the roof wouldn't open. If the skies got cloudy or the dew exceeded 85% the cameras would shut off and scopes would park and the roof would close up.

All this was being programmed by students from QUT, but when funding suddenly ran out in 2009, it all went to pot. But not was all lost. I now own all this stuff and being a self employed astronomer, I don't need to worry if the scopes were parked before the roof opened or closed due to weather changes, as I'm now on site 24/7.

So with a bit of thought one can easily design a system to open/close based on a light sensor and weather station. All one needs is some electronic background and presto, you have an automated roof system. The downside of automation is however, the program itself, electronic burn out, jamming, failure of weather station and or light senor, sudden change of voltage/weather conditions, lighting strikes, scope does not park or wake up.... the list is endless. But if you can design a fail-safe system, then the advantages outweigh the cons.

[Paul Haese]

No I did not have this thought of, but had discussed this briefly with Mark who said he had IP switching in a control box up there with a main computer on all the time. I will get one of these to reboot the computer and other appliances if need. Great tip Fred.

[Paul Haese]

I have sourced a roof and parked scope controller which will drive a retractable door mechanism. The unit I am looking at is this model (http://www.backyardobservatories.com/m1oasys.htm)

It will drive these door openers (http://www.ata-aust.com.au/shop/?fuseaction=intro&ct_id=98&i=5)including a gate opener. I am looking at either the AXESS 1100 pro or this gate opener (http://www.ata-aust.com.au/shop/?fuseaction=intro&ct_id=97&i=5). Both I know will work with the roof controller.

Any thoughts? Should I get the gate opener? It looks a bit plastic to me.

[bert]

I have used both those motors on obs roof installations (to be technical I used the previous ATA model slider on an obs, but I have installed the newer model as it is intended on a sliding gate, not on a roof.)... depends on your roof and how well it works. if your set on a gate slider motor there are other brands that are considerably more powerful. The 1100 is approx 4x times the price of the neoslider.

[Paul Haese]

Perhaps the gate opener is the go Brett?

[bert]

I would say the gate slider would be harder to setup and the inbuilt controller is overly sensitive to force margins, that is a temporary force against the motor will make the controller think it is sensing a collision and re open, hardly behavior that is desirable in an observatory. This is again depending on how well your roof works.

The 1100 is considerably more powerful, I have used it when automating larger rooves... I have video somewhere... I used it on an obs that is 8 x 4m which splits in the middle and the 2x 1100's drove each half of the roof. I built the roof and rollers etc... so I knew I had a smooth low friction action to work with, despite the weight of the roof. I also set up 2x 1100's on my brothers pool roof, that roof is somewhat larger than the observatory roof.

Like I said previous, for sliders there are other brands that do a far better job for what you want for similar money.

BTW I sell ata products, and have a gate and garage door installation business.

[Paul Haese]

Actually that makes more sense than you know Brett (re the gate opener). The roof at the obs does have a bit of pressure to overcome on the roof seal when the roof is closed.

Good to know about you being a dealer and installer. Can you send me a PM with a quote for the 1100 to send to me?

[Paul Haese]

Update

In the end I went with a scope dome system. It is 240v compatible, has 3 phase motors which work from inverter and the electronics looks very good and simple to setup. It should arrive on Friday now that it has cleared customs. The guys from Scope Dome were very good despite the Polish to English translations. The kit has gone nearly all the way around the world and I sent the money last Friday.

I will look at the bootable power supply now and get that here.

[Paul Haese]

Hey Fred that controller is no longer available. Is this one here (http://www.scorptec.com.au/computer/38562-9258w), going to work exactly the same and can you give me any tips on how to use them? ie do I need to have a cat5 cable connection to the modem in the house or can I use it wirelessly with the wireless router? How many would you recommend, I am thinking just the one but I could be completely wrong here? My questions might indicate my complete blank about the use of this product. I know that you plug the camera, mount, roof and computer into it but that is all I know or think I know.

[rogerg]

For what it's worth, my 2c worth ...

I have 8 IP power switches in my observatory and appreciate having them all, but could make do with less. It gives me great flexibility.
- Telescope
- Camera
- Computer
- Dew heater
- Focuser
- Second camera
- Cloud Watcher
- Light (to illuminate the observatory to see using a webcam)

I think the 9258W will suit you well as it has WiFi built in. The other functionality sounds very much the same as the other unit (probably the same chinglish firmware :) )

If you get the WiFi version you won't need Cat5/ethernet cable but if you don't get the wifi version you would either need cable or a WiFi access point in the obs to link to the house, which you then connect a cable to the IP power from.

[Paul Haese]

Yes I can see why you would need 8. My dew heater, focusor and cameras operate from the Mount Hub Pro. I will certainly need one for the others you have and did not think of the light for the security camera. Food for thought.

[Bassnut]

I used a cat5 cable to my router to set the wifi up 1st time, after that its wifi operation. I have 2 so I can reset everything seperately, its worth it (eg, I can turn off the rotator for a week to image one object without the stupid time consuming homeing routine everytime it powers up) and seperate outputs for dew heaters etc.. It has a built in web interface, so you can address it directly via yr router rather than the obs PC. The web interface is very easy to use and intuative and has powerful auto timing on-off features. Theres also a seperate simple desktop app just to turn stuff on and off.

Really, once its set up, its a no brainer to use. Instructions are provided for set up, its not hard. Its just a remotely controlable power board for anything with a 240v plug.

[Paul Haese]

Thanks Fred, I see your point about separate connections. I'll look more into it. Thanks for the tips.

[Paul Haese]

Bit of an update.

I purchased a roll off roof system from Scope Dome. They make great domes (one of which I have purchased for another automated observatory, yep two obs automated) but their gear is adaptable to roll off roof systems.

It comes complete with main board and a wireless board to handle control of thermometer, limit switches for the roof, hygrometer, Cloud sensor, park scope position and a range of other things which are useful for automated observatories.

I have one issue though and that is the inverter has a faulty command pin which Scope Dome are replacing. It should be here in a week or so.

I have a video of the roof opening, but not closing. When I have it closing I will post another video with it doing everything.

https://vimeo.com/70316652

[rogerg]

Sounds like a great system being so well integrated.

Neat to see the video :thumbsup:

I did embark on a great video exercise of my newly motorised roof, but make the task too big I think and so gave up and then broke my ankle and now can't be bothered :lol: But must do something.

[Paul Haese]

Roof works now. Link of the video below.

https://vimeo.com/70394311

Pretty happy with that. The screeching is just the rubber wheels rubbing up against the rails. The video makes it sound way louder than it actually is, however I will take a look at it to see if I can keep the noise low.

The software integration is next and I know the software will work with CCDautopilot.

[Paul Haese]

Software integration now complete. I had some trouble with getting the scope dome driver to connect with CCDAP. As it turned out it was Windoze user account settings stopping things. A friend suggested dropping the settings and it connected straight away.

The only real issue left with the roof automation now is to set up a reed switch to make sure the scope is at park before the roof closes. The scope dome software handles this and the hardware has the facility to connect a reed switch. Consequently I am waiting for an order from the States to arrive this coming week. Once this is installed I can do a few small runs to check if everything works as designed and ensure that the safe guards are working.

[Astroman]

Sounds awesome Paul, look forward to seeing it work without you touching it..