Vixen vs Skywatcher - a redux

[LewisM]

OK, I have been offered a Vixen GP-D2, with all the mods (NOT the GOTO mods, just motors and controller etc).

Keep the following in mind in the answers you may offer me:
1. my rig: Vixen FL102S refractor, with Orion finder guider (mounted on a central rail between rings), and an SXVR-M25C CCD - so, my rig is NOT very heavy at all

2. There will be NO additions to the setup - nothing bigger anyway.

3. My SOLE purpose is astro-imaging - visual is irrelevant, as I can do that with either mount.

In the professional opinion of those here, is the GP-D2 GENERALLY more accurate in terms of PEC, backlash etc than a bog-standard SW NEQ6? (load is REALLY not even a REMOTE issue, so that is not a determining factor)

The GPD2 currently has dual motors fitted, and the handcontroller. If I purchase the motherboard/controllerboard add on, can I then ASCOM/EQMOD the mount just like the NEQ6? Seems to have the same interface ports etc. Will the Vixen motherboard accept an ST4 guider, or will I have to guide via the EQMOD pulse guiding? (more accurate anyway). I do NOT want to go the StarBook way :)

I cannot have both - would mean selling the NEQ6 to pay for the GPD2.

[rmuhlack]

interesting question, i hadn't really considered the vixen mounts to date. from a quick search on the interwebs, it looks like many people see a periodic error with the vixen of around 15, which is about half what I have with my NEQ6. With PEC I have my NEQ6 down to about 6 arcsecs. Now if a similar sort of improvement is possible with the vixen mount then that would be superb.

Assuming that the cost is not a barrier, I think the limiting factor would be how easily you can do the GOTO conversion with ASCOM compatibility. If you're certain that is straight forward then i reckon it would be a goer. If you dont have ASCOM then it would have to be a no go i think. EQMOD compatibility would be nice as i certainly find the EQMOD/Alignmaster/PECPrep/Stellarium a pleasure to use (and all free).

Then again, if you can tune your existing NEQ6 and use PEC to further improve performance, why rock the boat...?

:)

[rmuhlack]

if you haven't seen this before, you might find it helpful when comparing different mounts:

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=90263&highlight=astrophotography+mount+re view

[garymck]

Hi,

I bought a GPD2 a couple of years ago after disposing of an EQ6 that was underperforming despite many modifications and much effort. After some initial issues that ended up being resolved with some careful adjustment I was and am fully satisfied with it. Pe is about 15 arc secs, but some of that is due to some synta gear errors. (I'm driving it with an eq5 synscan upgrade kit). I think it is actually much better than this.

My rms guiding errors are about 10 times less than I ever got with the eq6. Essentially guided exposures are unlimited in length - or at least not limited by the mount.

The GPD2 may not carry as heavy a load as the eq6, but when used within its capacity simply eats the eq6 for breakfast in terms of accuracy.

fwiw
cheers
Gary

[peter_4059]

Is EQMOD compatible with this mount? Haven't heard of anyone doing this.

[2stroke]

He added a sync scan upgrade kit, the GPD2 is a eq5 though the eq5 is a cheap chinease knock off of the GPD2. So yes it is if you added a a skywatcher scynscan to drive the mount.

edit hmm that just gave me idea about upgrading the worm and gear haha

[Phil Hart]

PEC on my EQ6 is about half that of my GP-DX, load capacity of EQ6 considerably better (better in windy conditions too) and the PEC is also rougher on the GP-DX (a little harder to guide out.. which I haven't tried much on the GP-DX).

I still love the GP-DX but particularly the SkySensor2000 control. At >500mm focal length, I'd much rather be using the EQ6.

Phil

[Profiler]

Lewis

This is probably a little left field but it may be worthwhile doing a little more research/consideration of the Vixen mounts. Granted the Vixen Starbook 'were' legendary from about 2003-2010 for being bad and unsuitable for AP but Vixen have spent almost ten years systematically improving the starbook software especially for southern hemisphere users. PEC, backlash etc is all there now. If you move up from the basic SXW to the SXD mechanical improvements are evident. If you decide to toss the Starbook for the NexD boards the mounts are said to be excellent. Finally, if you go for the even bigger spend and one of the current generation of mounts with Starbook 10 - Vixen have finally learnt from their past mistakes and the problems from their past mounts are gone and Vixen have finally achieved what they had aimed/hopef to provide almost 13 years ago with their mounts.

The catch of course is price.

[LewisM]

The mount being offered is brand new / current spec.

I have asked Steve Massey similar questions too, so be interesting what he says in this regard.

I sincerely thank those that have replied with their opinions etc. It is helping me certainly! Unfortunately, I cannot stretch to the Sphinx or GAIAX etc.

The NEQ6 has not fully lived up to what I expected of it, though still a decent mount certainly. I am trying to avoid Chinese mounts of ANY type, as there are too many issues I don't like very much - some trivial, some not so.

[Profiler]

Hunt around o'seas for a 2nd hand 1st generation sphinx - those who are in club Vixen are now gradually updating to SXD2's and SXPs as the Starbook 10 is a big drawcard so some good deals are coming along provided you are prepared to wait and watch out for one.

[brian nordstrom]

:) Yes Gary , I hear what you are saying .
My Vixen SP under my SKY90 is probably the best mount of its size I have ever used , its fit and finish is well above any Synta and its drives are super smooth with zero backlash , even tho its now 20 years old , try that with a Chineese mount .
15 arc seconds sounds about right.
Mine is the light green version .
Typical Japaneese quality .

And Lewis my SKY90 is probably heavier than your sweet FL102 , but a lot shorter .

Brian.

[garymck]

Hi Peter,

I do use eqmod with the synscan goto upgrade kit which is an easy fit to the GDD2. You don't use the large plastic cover that holds some of the wiring, but other than that it is a straight fit.

You do need to adjust the fit of the Synta gears as they are not round!! in one position my pe was terrible, By just rotating the gear 90 degrees and re fitting it to the worm it dropped to th 15 arc sec figure. This was good enough and guided well enough that I left well enough alone. Havent bothered to readjust for over 2 years.

cheers
Gary

[brian nordstrom]

:) Me neither Gary .
Vixen make a sweeter mount .;).
Brian.

[brian nordstrom]

:D smae .
Vixen mechanics are world class .And the v10 software sounds like the goods ?.
A nice combo of a good thing aye Gary .
Make your call Lewis .
Brian.

[Wavytone]

Sorry but I beg to differ. I had an SXD and loathed it and the Starbook - sold it quickly for all sorts of reasons well known.

The new Skywatcher AZ-EQ6 is better than anything from Vixen - especially for those who want to use two scopes visually in tandem in altaz configuration. And hey yes, it does EQ as well.

More importantly the worms wheels are significantly bigger and the mount stiffer than an EQ6.

The Skywatcher software "sucks arse", but if you're prepared to mate it wirelessly with an iPad it wins hands down IMHO over anything from Vixen.

[brian nordstrom]

:sadeyes: Bummer , %99.9876543 of us like Vixen .
How did the custemor service go ?
No need to swear by them Wayne !!!:screwy:n
My Vixen and others perform very well .
Brian.

[brian nordstrom]

:question:Stormy weather ..
Brian.

[brian nordstrom]

;).:hi:.3rd time .
Brian .

[Profiler]

Hi Wavytone

No argument that Vixens 'had' a great reputation and established track record for being terrible but are your comments and experiences based on using one of the 1st generation (i.e SXW or SXD) mounts with the current version 2.3 of Starbook (I think released late 2011) or one of the earlier attempts over the past 7-8 years at trying to get the bugs out of their systems. As I mentioned the SXW/D with the NexD boards are well regarded and the Starbook 10 in the new generation mounts are another ball-park altogether

[Wavytone]

Profiler,

From the perspective of the technology of say 2000 the SXD and starbook I had made sense, and I agree technology has moved on, but Vixen seem notably "missing in action" when it comes to new products for mounts or decent eyepieces.

Their mount technology is 10+ years old. Archaic, frankly,
The LV and LVW eyepieces are an excellent but 20 year old design.
The NLV eyepieces are just LV's in an inferior plastic housing.

Their only recent product is the 200mm astrograph, for which Skywatcher having no equivalent.

[Wavytone]

Profiler,

From the perspective of the technology of say 2000 the SXD and starbook I had made sense, and I agree technology has moved on, but Vixen seem notably "missing in action" when it comes to new products for mounts or decent eyepieces.

Their mount technology is 15+ years old. Archaic, frankly.

The LV and LVW eyepieces are an excellent but 20 year old design, the LVWs were effectively killed off by Televues Naglers, Paragons and the ultra-wides.

The NLV eyepieces are just LV's in an inferior plastic housing. Very ordinary but well made eyepieces.

Their only recent product is the 200mm astrograph, for which Skywatcher having no equivalent.

Skywatcher is making cheap scopes and mounts and is clearly still finding room for improvement. More than I would say for Vixen, which IMHO is stuck with an ageing management unable up with new ideas. If you look at say iOptron and other newcomers there is clearly still room for useful innovation.

[Profiler]

Hi Wavytone

I think most of us read your message the first time but unfortunately you appear to have missed my point and thus not answer the question which was actually posed.

That is - in summary:

Are your views based on using one of the 1st generation mounts (eg SXW/SXD) with the current 2.3 version of Starbook? - Yes or No?

Or, in the alternative:

Are your views based on using either of the current generation Vixen mounts (ie SXD2 or SXP) which both use the totally new Starbook 10 - Yes or No?

PS
Imitation is often viewed as the greatest compliment so I suppose Vixen should be flattered as the smaller Ioptron EQ mount is suspiciously similar to a Sphinx design and the larger one has an uncanny resemblance to an AP mount.

[Wavytone]

Later version of SXD and Starbook.

The SXD was mechanically inadequate IMHO. Maybe I just bought something I shouldn't have - from the typical use I gave it, it was less than ideal and I rapidly hated it.

If you have one and it works for you - in the role you want, fine, good luck to you.

[Profiler]

I am sorry - I am not clear on what you mean by "later" version?

Did you sell your Vixen before version 2.3 was released in 2011?

If so - then I guess that means you werent using the 2.3 version and it doesn't sound like you have any experience with the new mounts

[Wavytone]

Bought and sold in 2011. I don't recall the version.

Anyway.... As the recent thread from Sydney Observatory shows - analyse your needs very carefully because the solutions others are happy with may be inappropriate for what you want to do.

I had sold all my gear long ago in 1990 and looking to put together a new setup from scratch after a long hiatus, went with the SXD on the recommendation of someone I knew, without thinking about it more carefully. I was dubious from the outset about the size of the worm wheels vs the aperture of my scope and as far as I'm concerned the old rule still stands - their diameter should be no less than 50% of the aperture. Anything smaller will be wobbly. Plus the tripod was too flimsy IMHO. I know many of you break these rules with your gear but I wasn't impressed.

Mistake was mine. Also my eyesight has deteriorated after 20 years, more than I realised, to the extent that in the dark I effectively can't use a Starbook of any vintage, though a Synscan handset or some Astro apps on an iPad are fine.

[Kunama]

Wavetone, I am curious what does the discussion about LVs, LVWs and SXD have to do with the original question posed by Lewis?

[Wavytone]

My point about vixen is a significant lack of innovation. They came up with some good products in the '90's but after that almost nothing. Their mounts are old tech.
Skywatcher is still coming up with new products, mounts in particular. IOptron, Meade, even Celestron I'd have to say have done more development.

As for Questar - perfect long-focus optics but unsuited to modern digital cameras, in an OTA and mount which are superbly crafted works of art - if you are happy with 1970's tech - no stepping motors, no fast slewing, no autoguiders, no GPS nor encoders.

[Kunama]

How did you find the GP-D2 for accuracy, how was the PE?

[Wavytone]

I had an SXD, not a GP-D2. PE wasn't anything to rave about, many here were clearly doing a lot better with EQ5 and EQ6 mounts carrying much larger scopes than mine, to the extent what I had was clearly a waste of time hence sold it quickly. As far as I was concerned it was good enough for visual observing, maybe a beginner getting toes wet in AP with a small scope, but not for routine AP where you expect it to "just work" reliably 90% of the time at focal lengths of 800mm. I'm not interested in spending thousands on gear and trips to dark sites - when the weather permits - to come back with bad photos.

[Kunama]

I was under the impression that an EQ5 was a Chinese copy of the Vixen GP-DX and that the GP-D2 is an improved version of the DX.

[Wavytone]

Well either way, the results I got were disappointing, quite frankly. I had issues with flexure in the mount which I concluded was ultimately due to the diameter of the worm gears being hopelessly inadequate for the load they were carrying, the tripod was flimsy in any wind (I use exposed sites), poor tracking (PE) and the Starbook which I found infuriating to use in the dark, plus the business of keeping the axes locked and slewing all night which I hate since it didn't have dual encoders. Drove me nuts frankly. I'd have swapped for an EQ6 with WiFi and iPad long ago, the only thing that stopped me was the news of the AZ-EQ6 or EQ7 (depending which country you are in); currently I'm waiting to see what issues people have with these, and want to try one before buying one.

[Profiler]

I am not sure what this all means but I took a quick look in the archives for sold Vixen mounts and found a SXW sold by Wavytone - but it wasn't sold in 2011 but 2 years earlier in 2009. Which means that particular mount sold by Wavytone in 2009 couldn't possibly have featured version 2.3 of the original starbook.

I suppose since 2009 Wavytone must have purchased another second Vixen Sphinx mount - presumably a SXD this time (not SXW) - and thereafter sold it in late 2011 as it was yet again considered unsatisfactory.

Personally, I can't fathom how Vixen stays in business or persist with these mounts if they are so incredibly bad. Indeed, they are so bad that some people buy two of them within roughly two years.

Its not like the astronomy community isn't filled with discerning consumers and competitive manufacturers.;)

[hotspur]

I own a Vixen GPD2 and Vixen GP mount,one has DD1 controller the other SS2000 and is full goto.I do AGing and imaging,all good,with Vixen ED 81 mm and 103 mm apo refractors.

I did own a SW NEQ6 at the same time,the best thing I ever did with NEQ 6 was sell it! Although a reasonable piece of kit.

The newer vixen mount gear is not quite as liked by imagers as previous gear.

[Profiler]

I think the best perspective is that Vixen was and still is a high quality leading brand - and IMHO their level of quality grossly underestimated.

Having given them this praise the initial release of the Sphinx mounts was something of a recognised and accepted disaster for both them and the folks unfortunate enough to have originally purchased the mounts.

The 'mechanics' of Vixen mounts are of an excellent quality and in no way comparable to the mass produced Chinese clone brands etc. The true elephant in the room and titanic was the 'software' (not the concept) of the Starbook.

It is a sign of Vixen's quality and integrity that they have expended years of development provided free to end-users trying to fix the starbook. After some 8 years they are pretty close to this goal. However, with the passage of time and improvement of technology two things have also evolved

1) NexD boards which transform the mounts out of starbook into a celestron CGem

2) They have totally revamped the concept and produced the totally new and original Starbook 10 where they have learnt from all their mistakes and integrated it with even better mechanics.

The options depend on your budget. The really big advantage of the SXW is its self-contained portability. That is why this is the only 1st generation Sphinx Vixen maintain with the original starbook but installed with the latest 2.3 version of Starbook. These mounts have been around now for a while and so 2nd hand bargins can be had and their problems fixed with updated software.

However, if your budget can stretch to a brand new mount then the SXD2 and especially SXP are nothing like their 1st generation ancestors and will gradually redeem the damage done to the Vixen brand name in terms of Vixen mounts being viewed as of similar quality alongside Tak, AP, Losmanday (after the embarrasments of the past 7-8 years due to the problems with the original Starbook software).

If you can find a 2nd hand SXW cheap enough it is well worth considering (especially once the latest version of Starbook 2.3 is installed) - otherwise these mounts should be used with the NexD board.

[LewisM]

I have decided to purchase the GP-D2, and will be listing the NEQ6 for sale soon. Been an interesting discussion!

Upgrading to the Starbook looks EXPENSIVE, so will most likely just get the Vixen control board (and motors, if the ones already with it are NOT Vixen) and add the Synscan (seeing the HEQ5 upgrade to GOTO FITS these). I will NOT use the SW motors - EVER!

Lots of thinking ahead to save a little more. I like the Synscan, but IF I can EQmod it, then even better all-round.

[Profiler]

Sounds like a good choice

However, keep an open mind if a cheap Sphinx comes along

[brian nordstrom]

;) I am glad my red 'Flag' back in post #18 got the discussions going on this subject .
I cant bieleve that if one person has a bad run with a product they can bag every other one ?? small minded .

Good call Lewis , you wont be dissapionted with the Vixen , especially carrying your FL102 and associated gear .

I have owned all models of the SW mounts from EQ2-HEQ5's and they are good to a point , but the Vixen SP I have now is a totally different beast , better in every way .
Oh yea , I have my IEQ45 for GPS, GOTO , bla bla bla ... but still like to just plonk the SP down pointing roughly south and observe , nice and stress free .
Brian.

[rmuhlack]

Lewis - are you now thinking you'll put that vc200l on the GP-D2...? Will that be a problem at all weight wise?

[garymck]

Lewis,

The eq5 version fits the gpd2, not the heq5 version. I have this combo using a vc200l, works wonderfully.

Cheers
Gary

[LewisM]

Possibly :) Most of the time will be using the FL102, but never know.

I have seen and heard of others using the VC200L on the GPD2 without hassle. Besides, I have now gone CCD, so the camera weight is a LOT less.

Had the camera 2 weeks now... today was the first time I actually really tried it out - on a terrestrial target of course thanks to QLD wonderful weather. Splotchy holes tonight, but not fussed to set up really. I want a no-worry cloud free night - which will be july at this rate.

[Kunama]

VMC200L on GP-D2