Which Refractor Is Best for $7000

[johnnyt123]

Hi everyone....

I have been wanting to buy a scope I may never need to replace again...
I have been doing some research and i want to get the largest aperture triplet refractor for arounf $7000 and i have come across the following...:

Omegon 150mm ED triplet APO carbon fiber
http://www.omegon.eu/omegon-apochromatic-refractor-ap-150-1000-ed-triplet-carbon-ota/p,21268

Sky-Watcher ESPRIT-150ED PROFESSIONAL
http://www.myastroshop.com.au/products/details.asp?id=MAS-045B2

William Optics FLT-151 OTA
http://www.myastroshop.com.au/products/details.asp?id=MAS-047H

I want to ask if anyone knows which of these is best or even if anyone has any other suggestions then i would gladly welcome them....

Thanks for all your time...


Johnny

[g__day]

Depends on your purpose (visual, astrophotography, scientific) what your seeing conditions are like where you intend to use it and if your gear (mount and cameras are well matched to your goals).

Bit more information would be helpful to shape the advice that may be given.

I see you scopes are in the low to mid range of gear - yet you say never to replace - so it makes your purpose even more essential.

[strongmanmike]

Wow, three nice sounding scopes there, hard to pick the best really...?

Matt is right though, what do you want to do with it?

Good luck with your quest.

Mike

[johnnyt123]

I want to use it primarily for astrophitography .....

I will buy a mount and a ccd camera to achieve that purpose.
But for now I am mainly looking for the scope.

What other suggestions do,you have?

[g__day]

Confirm your budget for the entire set-up (mount normally costs the most out of all your gear).

Confirm your target set - what sort of Objects you will most likely wish to image (to confirm this is compatible with the selected OTA - e.g. very faint nebulae in bright skies - more likely requires a large Newtonian or SCT or RC and/or narrow-band filters might make more sense)...

What size CCD will you seek to use? - if its a full format one, to avoid coma and provide a flat field certain apo designs may work better than others.

As Mike said (and he would know) more information from you means alot better advice will be given!

[MattT]

Have a look at Istar scopes too. Click on the link in my sig below.
Matt

[sgazer]

not sure about the quality of each, but for AP I'd go for the fastest focal ratio which is the WO, sure it will also be excellent quality. Might need a field flattener though, so best make sure one's available.

[brian nordstrom]

Hi Johnny , have a look at the new Skywatcher 120-150mm "Esprit" triplets , they look very nice for the price .
Brian.

[leon]

Get the best mount you can afford, the foundation for any scope and go from there, a million dollar scope on a crappy mount just dose not work.

Leon

[alocky]

As has already been mentioned, you will need to spend similar on the mount. If that's no problem, have a look at the Tak FSQ or the Televue NPis as well. What you might also consider at this end of the market are the very fast Riccardi-Honders designed astrographs. Not a refractor, I know, but photons don't seem to care whether they're reflected or refracted.
Of course, you should probably keep another 10k or so handy for the camera and filters that will get the most out of this gear.

It's fun spending other people's money!
Best wishes,
Andrew.

[g__day]

So just a word of warning - if you expect to spend $7K on an APO, be prepared to spend $5 - $10K on a mount and $2K - $10K on a CCD, it all depends on what your are planning to do with your gear (i.e. how dim will be the targets you wish to image). This will determine the precision and capabilities of the mount and possibly the imaging camera you will require. Then there is the matter of guiding - requiring mounting for a side by side or piggy backed second OTA and camera - or an On or Off axis guider plus camera. Then there is control and image acquisition and processing software, precision focusers and other equipment.

At the high end - life ain't cheap!

[issdaol]

I can vouch for that even just for visual use :(

[PRejto]

So why not a TEC140? I love mine and it is pretty close to perfect on the Paramount MX mount.

Most every APO is going to need a field flattener if you want to use a camera able to capture a wide field. The TEC Flattener alone adds $750.00. Yuri said with a KAF8300 CCD camera (which is a pretty nice match for the scope giving 1.14 Arc sec resolution) that I probably wouldn't need a flattener. Mostly true, but I do see some distortion right at the edges which I can easily crop off. My photos look pretty flat but surprisingly, even so, CCDInspector shows curvature. Anything larger than the KAF8300 and the FF isn't optional. I'm pretty sure this is standard fare for just about any APO. The WO scope you listed in the first post is fast and has a FF but it is way higher than your budget. Anyway, I could wax on about the TEC for a long time, but most would probably agree that it ranks amongst the top 2 or 3 refractors currently in production, and compared to those other 1 or 2 top scopes comes in more affordable, perhaps because it uses an oil spaced triplet, rather than air spaced. People will argue the merits/demerits of this design forever, but one thing that seems to stand out in my reading is that these lenses are quicker to reach thermal equilibrium. Another thing you might consider is that these top end scopes retain their resale value extremely well. If you want to sell a TEC, and you price it fairly, you might sell it in a day.

Visually my TEC140 has given me the greatest views of the planets/moon I can quite imagine. Sure, I'd love a TEC180 or TEC200, but this size seems to hit a sweet spot in terms of seeing with larger apertures more affected by poor seeing. Not that 10 mm is going to make a huge difference one way or the other. I didn't price your other scopes re required accessories, but you can see the TEC140 prices here. It's fairly close to your budget new, but you need to factor in shipping and customs too. On the used market they certainly do come up and you could get the whole package under your $7k.

http://www.telescopengineering.com/tec/apo140ed_order/order.html

[OzEclipse]

This maybe a bit over or out of your price range
CFFT telescopes made in Romania
http://cfftelescopes.eu/160mm.html
It's a 160mm f6.5
Export price ~ €7000

I met one of the owners last year. He came on my eclipse tour. These are well made instruments but not so well known- the company is still quite new.


Joe

[johnnyt123]

Wow I am overwhelmed with everyone's appreciated input.

Rally brought to my attention Takahashi TOA150.
This is a great scope and I know it is outside my 7k budget but I feel this will be one that I may be happy with for a very long time.

Takahashi and unquestionable in they're color correction and quality.
But furthermore I hadn't really considered everything in detail regarding the type of idealic setup I am hoping for. So all up I think conservatively I need to budget 20k. I can definitely feel that black hole in my pocket feeding on my wallet.....

But I thought I had to start somewhere and I thought a really good scope might be the thing to start with.

I will continue to look into this. If anyone has or knows of a fully functioning electronically driven fully automated setup of this caliber could you please bring it to my attention.

Once again I appreciate everyone's help.

Johnny

[clive milne]

The Veblen Uber-Hypochromat is irresistible..
(Frédéric Beigbeder had one up for sale recently at the bargain price of 99 Francs)

[alocky]

Didn't you have one of those?

[Poita]

A 6" refractor is a big bugger of a thing, I've been using one for solar and I really underestimated just how big they are.
All of those scopes are lovely beasts, but as said repeatedly here, a mount is going to be expensive for it.

A few questions before making recommendations...

1) What targets are you interested in photographing?
2) How dark are your skies?
3) What is your current experience level with astrophotography?

Cheers

-Peter

[LewisM]

Now you know why I called it "the Dinosaur" Peter - my daughter saw it under a sheet once on the mount, and asked me was it a Dinosaur :)

[clive milne]

Before they were Veblen... I only paid $3600 and that was for a 7" made with the infamous NASA glass pour.

[alocky]

That's right - I believe they're now marketed as the Galaxsee 400x in Aus.
:)
Cheers
Andrew.

[gregbradley]

Rally brought to my attention Takahashi TOA150.
This is a great scope and I know it is outside my 7k budget but I feel this will be one that I may be happy with for a very long time.

Takahashi and unquestionable in they're color correction and quality.
But furthermore I hadn't really considered everything in detail regarding the type of idealic setup I am hoping for. So all up I think conservatively I need to budget 20k. I can definitely feel that black hole in my pocket feeding on my wallet.....


+1.

TOA150 may be the best scope in the market in its class. Main complaint about it is it is a heavy scope and front heavy. But its performance is remarkable.

I think there was one that sold on Astromart recently quite "cheaply" at about $6500. Usually they are around $7500 to 8500 2nd hand.


Greg.

[Peter Ward]

There have been various "shoot-outs" between Taka 150's and AP155's.

I suspect the market has decided the "winner".

While Taka's do come up 2nd hand, and AP's do so even more rarely...but also sell for significantly more than the original sticker price (if well looked after)

But hey...every man has his price....

I'll sell my AP300 Honders for a very reasonable $55K... Any takers? :D

[RobF]

Hang on Johnny. There's no such thing as a scope that does it all and keeps you happy indefinitely. If you've really only been in this game since late last year (when joined forums?) you need to learn to crawl before running.

Have you learned how to polar align, guide, collect decent data, process etc? Sure a quality OTA will be a joy to use, but you'll still need a good 6 months of bruising your noggin' on the brick wall made up of those things before the extra few thousand you've invested will yield best returns. You definitely need to have some idea of mount, objects you prefer to shoot, optimal focal length and best camera for flattened FOV. There's a lot to be said for keeping your focal length under 800mm or so while learning to track and auto-guide initially. You need excellent guiding (and seeing) to gain from the resolution longer FL's offer.

Nothing to stop you whacking an eyepiece in and enjoying superb views of course if it all gets too hard from time to time!

[clive milne]

If you put a Ferrari sticker on it,
included one of these:
http://media.sdreader.com/img/photos/2012/06/27/pump1.jpg
And could show us how to defy the laws of physics...

you'd be on a winner.

[johnnyt123]

Lol Clive......

Rob thanks for your information.
Honestly my alignment skills suck.
I can barely polar align and rely heavily on my guide camera to keep things in check.

I am not sure if I would but a scope of this caliber from overseas and hope it doesn't get damaged in transit....

There is a lot to consider so I will bide my time.....

[clive milne]

The TOA 150 by the way (in a rare moment of seriousness) is a pretty good
choice. If I was going to go down the refractor path again it would be either
the TOA 150 or the FSQ 106. :thumbsup:

And even for a pragmatic, cynical bar steward like myself... it wouldn't take
too much to sway me to the dark side again.

[Peter Ward]

Clive...I think you are a cool dude.

But I wasn't even thinking: Yay! "pi$$ing contest".

It was a *joke*......(it's not for sale)

P.S.
I lie.
I'd accept $500k or a low Km Fezza 458.

[RockHound]

Have you tried EQAlign?

http://eqalign.net/e_eqalign.html

[Logieberra]

Agree with Greg here, look on Astromart - they do come up. US exchange rate is still working in your favour, though expect to pay $500 + in shipping + duties and GST etc.

[Octane]

I'm not on Astromart, but, if one of these bad boys pops up, can someone let me know? :D

H

[gregbradley]

You'd be hard pressed to do much better than this for US$5400:

http://www.astromart.com/classifieds/details.asp?classified_id=811982

It won't last long. The only reservation is 2.7 inch focusers are only good for up to APS sized sensors. 35mm or larger require 4 inch. But you could buy a 4 inch greasless AP focuser to upgrade it later. But the reducers would not fit but could be sold. An AP 4 inch flattener though is around US$2000.

Greg.

[clive milne]

TOA-150

http://www.astromart.com/classifieds/details.asp?classified_id=813431


Perfect condition. Includes Scopeguard case, tube balance weight, Tak rings, 3 Tak extensions, finder bracket with quick release and delivery to US 48.

The unit is currently an F model which is quite satisfactory for visual use. The criticism for the F model is that Tak used a nylon type of material for the internal focuser rails and under heavy attachment loads the nylon will deform slightly, the B model replaced these rails with steel along with some other changes. There has been no change in glass or coatings between the models.

I have three pricing options depending on how you plan to use the unit and for comparison purposes the current street price for a new B model and these extras delivered is about $13,400.

If you must have a B model I will ship the unit to Texas Nautical and have the F focuser replaced with a B focuser for $9,800, you pay for delivery from TNR. There is an 8 week lead time for the new focuser. The F focuser is yours to resell.

If you can live with the appearance of the F model but want the performance of the B model I will ship the unit to Texas Nautical and have the rails replaced with the new B model steel rails in the focuser for $8,700, again you pay for delivery from TNR. TNR can make this upgrade in a few days.

If you plan to use the unit visually or for light loads I will ship it to you as is for $8,400.

The unit is in mint/as new/unblemished condition. Photos on request. PayPal private has no fees.

[brian nordstrom]

:mad2: Me to H ,my 'Lifetime' subscription to AM got canned last year , they wont answer any questions I sent them about this ? , so I suppose its just a dead few hundred dollars !!! :mad2:.Out of my pocket ! ( stilll waiting for my 'T' shirt :shrug:)
Cloudynites ( and IIS ) all the way now .

On the 7k question , I still think one of these new SW 152mm f/7 Quad's are worth a look at ?
Anyone looked thru one yet ? .

Brian.

[Kal]

I'm pretty certain that a 2.7" focuser is large enough for an unvignetted image on 35mm

4" focusers are designed for medium format, like a pentax 6x7

[Larryp]

I had 2.7" focusers on my Starfires, and used to do 35mm photography (film) with no vignetting

[Kal]

yeah a google search shows this post (http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-ug/message/22039) by Roland stating that the 2.7" focuser on the traveller won't vigentte when imaging onto 35mm:


The Traveler itself is not the source of any vignetting. The inside
dimensions of the 2.7" focuser allows much bigger than 35mm coverage with no
vignetting. Adding the Field Flattener again does not cut into the light cone of
a 35mmfield. If any vignetting does occur, it will be at the very rear end at the
T-ring. It is the T-ring opening that could potentially restrict the light
reaching the 35mm film plane. Check the size of the opening of your camera. For
full unvignetted coverage, your camera opening, including T-ring, must be larger
than (34mm^2 + 24mm^2)^1/2 in diameter (does anyone know what I just wrote
there?)* Unfortunately, we have no control over camera manufacturers and their
T-ring system.

Roland Christen

[brian nordstrom]

:DMy SKY90 has a Takahashi , Japanese'd sized 2.6 inch R&P focuser thats really expensive and nice to use , wont fit the 2.7 inch gear , and its as good as my ( Now sold) FT3035 , in a 127mm triplet) .
R&P Rule .:hi:.
Tak 2.6 inch vrs 2.7 inch of the rest of the world . 0.75mm pitch both .
Brian.

[Larryp]

Agree with you, Brian. R&P is the only focuser on a refractor. I was pleased to see Stellarvue make a very nice R&P unit to fit to their refractors.
I remember well, the Astro-Physics 2.7" R&P unit-absolutely buttery smooth, and would never slip no matter what load was on it-I used to hang a Nikon F2 on it, and it was one heavy camera!

[gregbradley]

AP is likely different to other manufacturers as Roland often gets a wide corrected circle on his scopes. Perhaps I got that wrong, it wasn't so much vignetting as coma. Flatteners for it vignetted and without the flattener there was bad coma in the corners. This is a Tak FS152 I am talking about so other scopes may be slightly different.

My FS152 had coma natively on 35mm in the corners and when I used the TOA35 flattener it vignetted badly. A 4 inch focuser/flattener solved that problem. The usual astrograph setup is a 3.5 or 4 inch focuser that is offered. 2.7 inch is often for older smaller camera chips or for visual. You may get away with it but you would be taking a risk if you are planning to use an STL11 or larger sensor. I think it comes down to the size of the corrected image circle.

So if you do decide to use a 2.7 inch focuser you run the risk of too small a corrected image circle giving coma in the corners or a flattener that may end up vignetting. Perhaps it won't but most likely it will. Anyway that was my experience with a Tak FS152. Other scopes may vary with an AP most likely having the largest corrected circle in its class.

Greg.

[clive milne]

AP 160ff, corrected field 76mm:
http://www.astro-physics.com/products/accessories/photo_acc/160ff.htm

TOA-150 with FL67 field flattener, 90mm
http://www.takahashi-europe.com/en/TOA-150.specifications.php

[Logieberra]

Both Marcus and I have the older style focuser on the TOA. Some quote it as a 2.7" model, which is not correct. To my knowledge, it's 3.5". Depends where the focuser is measured, that is to say, 2.7" is not the same across manufacturers. Also, my 3.5" along with #67 flattener -- flat, unobstructed wide field on 6D full frame chip.

[gregbradley]

Both of these are 4 inch focusers and corrected circle varies. In this case Tak is ahead (the old Tak versus AP competition eh?).

See the TOA FL35 only has a 40mm corrected circle - thats the 2.7 inch flattener that vignetted terribly on my FS152 and was unusable with an STL11 camera. It could be my data is limited here to only an older type scope as my TEC110 would handle an
STL11 and its about a 2.7 inch focuser.

Your TOA would be 4 inch if it handles the 67 flattener as it has a 90mm corrected circle so it must be quite large.

TOA scopes have a different optical configuration to the older FS doublets so it may be less of a problem with them (I did hear a report from someone who was using 2.7 inch focuser successfully with STL11). The point being you'd have to make sure before you spent $7000 on a refractor with a 2. inch focuser that it could handle a chip that large if that was your intended use. It would be an expensive mistake if it doesn't.

Greg.

[Logieberra]

Tak eventually replaced to the TOA focuser with the new 'B' style, now 'TOA-150B'. Same 4" focuser as used on latest FSQ. I was quoted $1,000 to upgrade to 'B', but after advice from Marcus I too stuck with the original and went with RoboFocus.

You could also go FeatherTouch for complete focuser upgrade (a very popular discussion in the US and Tak forums) but by the time you purchase the FT focuser, adapters and FT motor to suit, looking at $1,200+ and whopping great lump of original focuser rendered useless and near impossible to sell!

Agree with Greg, focuser needs to be considered carfully in a 7k scope purchase!

[Logieberra]

P.S. If I had the coin an FLI focuser would have been my next choice. On R&P focusers you still have that nice manual control for visual sessions, just operate the R&P like the FLI is not even there, whereas Robo and FT motors both need that constant 12v power to operate...

[Peter Ward]

The AP 155F7 (http://www.astro-physics.com/index.htm?products/telescopes/155edf/155edf) looks like it trumps contemporary offerings at 15-20 microns across a 4" field (100mm )

[Logieberra]

Peter, is a used AP155 available in this 7k price range?

[gregbradley]

Used AP155 tend to go for closer to US$9000+. A 2.7 inch model may go for $8500. You can do a search on Astromart to see the history of sales but that's what I've seen.

There was a good one about 4 months ago. AP155, 4inch focuser and flattener for US$9500. That's low for that much scope.

By the time you add in shipping, insurance, GST, currency conversion its closer to $11,000.

Greg.

[Peter Ward]

Unless it's had a hard life, no....but at 20% more it would be a steal.

The other thing I'd note is the $A is long overdue for a correction/fall-off-cliff

I'm still smarting from when it was $US 0.48