Raspberry Pi as a VNC connected mount-controller

[pmrid]

Brendan, this carries across from the previous thread - and I agree that a VNC connection back would be excellent. I was thinking about maybe using a small SSD instead of the SD card - the SD cards are fairly slow and if the Pi is running PHD or something similar, that could be a bottleneck.
Also, it probably doesn't really need a screen does it - perhaps for the setup and connection phase but thereafter it is all remote isn't it? Same with a mouse/keyboard. Could they be disabled or even disconnected once the connection is made? Or perhaps connected via a KMV swith or whatever they are called?
Peter

[rmuhlack]

I've been looking into this sort of thing recently as well. I'm unsure if the raspberry pi has the requisite grunt for mount control, guiding and tethered image capture, so i've come across a few alternatives which although more expensive offer more hardware features and better performance:

Pandaboard (http://pandaboard.org/content/resources/references)
Beagleboard xm (http://beagleboard.org/hardware-xM)

It might even be possible to run OpenPHD and an indiserver on a 'rooted' android smartphone - that is another option i am looking into.

The challenge is (as you have already mentioned) that you have to use linux. Image capture and guiding is now incorporated into the latest version of Kstars, as is a GUI interface for indiserver (see here: http://indilib.org/). Dithering, and PEC are probably the main features that i think are still lacking from the existing linux software offerings.

Failing all this i might just give in and get a miniITX PC and install win7...

[rmuhlack]

btw if you're running an INDI server you don't need VNC, as the INDI protocol is already designed to be run on either a local or remote host

[wasyoungonce]

Hi Peter, Richard.

Thanks for the info on INDI. Looks as if this could be really good project. Those other small control boards look good too. They have more std features than the Pi built in, like RS232 wireless...but they are more expensive (panda board costs$? U/k, BeagleBoard $200+. Not that the Pi cannot be added on to run RS232 or wireless..it's just these other boards have the hardware already onboard.

I noticed they also have a camera controller, the Pi does as well although I think it is for webcams. These camera controllers on the PandaBoard and Beagleboard looks like they will run DSLRs. I need to research this some more. Although you can run DSLRs thru USB.

To me the cost of the mini controller is not the major issue, its the features size and ability to run things like: PHD; DSLR control; focusers, and for many other...filter wheels etc.....ect.

All stuff this should be able to be controlled using VNC as long as the client can interpret the controller computer. Using as a VNC you shouldn't need to connect a monitor/keyboard to the controller, just connect and control it from another host computer.

The beauty of these small controllers is not so much that you can control over greater distances (which is a big plus) it's that you have the resources, in a small package, to run all your hardware devices. Thus you reduce all those annoying leads to and fro the OTA/mount. Even if your 3 metres away the ability to reduce leads is a big plus.
This is why I'm interested in these products.

So, What I'll do is sit down and look at the controllers. Looking to get one that has the ability to run the astro devices, one which will suit now and possibly the future and one that other Astro users will be using as well. No use re-inventing the wheel. Not sure on the ability of the Pi to have the bandwidth resources to run astro devices. I did read somewhere that it was hogged down when running PHD under linux.

This is probably why the Pi is attractive. there is a lot of interest in it and it appears to be building.

If anyone has any thoughts ...chime in I'd be interested in other peoples thoughts and experiences. I can do the hardware side of anything that needs controlling...it's just the software side that I'm at the weak end of the gene pool.

[RickS]

I have been waiting for a mature open source USB over Ethernet implementation. I had a look at USB/IP (http://usbip.sourceforge.net/) a while back but it didn't look like it was ready to deal with unusual devices like CCD cameras.

Once the software is sorted there's no shortage of inexpensive hardware with host USB ports and WiFi or Ethernet that could be used at the scope end. I work for a company that makes devices like that :thumbsup:

Cheers,
Rick.

[chaffingbuttock]

not that i know much about anything in this field, (astronomy or linux), but what about something like this:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BenQ-S6-2GB-Wi-Fi-3G-4-8-inch-Touchscreen-Micro-SD-32GB-Gray-/261068066780?pt=US_Tablets&hash=item3cc8de8fdc

Apparently it's possible to upgrade the bios and get win XP on there (which should run alright on an atom 800mhz). Then could you run PHD etc?

[whzzz28]

I'm not sure if Pi or any of the ARM based boards will have the required grunt to do this, nor will the software run (suppose it depends on what software you use)
I was looking into doing something like this as well. A tiny little box mounted onto the mount and then access it remotely.
The best i was able to come up with was a Fit-PC2, with a 1.6ghz atom and 2gb ram it should do everything (all be it a bit slow).
Sadly they are very exxy to buy in Australia. If you want to import one then they are cheaper.

http://www.yawarra.com.au/catalogue.php?page=fitpc2&s=fpc2-bus
http://www.yawarra.com.au/product.php?productCode=HW-FPC2

Given that it has 4x USB ports, it's almost a USB hub in itself.

Also if you want to go down a mini/nano itx route: http://www.mini-box.com.au/

[whzzz28]

Still yet to find a rugged, outdoor mini-itx case...
Maybe a suggestion for the development team ;)
Plenty available for wifi installations (such as the wrap-box or mikrotik) but nothing to house a mini-itx.

[RickS]

The development team likes to point people to NEMA enclosures :) Unless you're specializing in ruggedized gear, building it is a lot of hassle and expense for a limited gain.

[wasyoungonce]

In the above responses shows all the major issues keeping all this from taking off, which is a pity:

The CPU grunt;
The ability to run windows OS (and thus associated astronomical instrument software) is paramount;
The cost.

As mentioned fit2PC...well out of the league for most users. The others mentioned...cost is within the target zone but they use other OS thus the lack of support. Hi Matthew...I haven't even considered something like that....but it's worthy of consideration. Expandability with it might be an issue...lack of USB and GPIO pins.

As Rick said....USB over Ethernet will be very nice but it's not the full blown panacea. Something that runs Ethernet, wireless, RS232 and USB...now that's the ticket.

But which one? :shrug: Difficult to say...probably Pi is a good place to start but those other mini boards with RS232/wireless/BT inbuilt would make it a hell of a lot easier.

[chaffingbuttock]

Yeah it's a bit skimp on connectables, but the benq unit has one USB (albeit mini) which allows you to connect a hub to it. That way you can connect as many USB devices to it. This is the guide to installing winXP (http://forum.ultrabooknews.com/showthread.php?47143-Installing-XP-on-a-BenQ-S6-2013-Edition&). Looks simple enough. I'm not sure what software you guys are wanting to run, but there is also a workaround apparently (also on that page) that allows you to shift file directories to external SD card since the 2gb internal is a bit light. PHD guiding software is only 10mb so there should be enough space for that and it apparently runs on winXP so i'm not sure what the cpu requirement is. If you only have barebones installed, i guess it should run ok?

[chaffingbuttock]

Not sure if you saw this, but there is a thread that has some interesting information.

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5387621/Main/5369851

[wasyoungonce]

Hi Matthew, Yep that's exactly what I am on about and have been drooling over. That's a Raspberry Pi running PHD Linux version.

Although I did read that PHD INDI drivers were a bit resource hog and the OP of the thread then used LIN-guider. Lin-guider is an astronomical autoguiding program for Linux. However that's just one astro program running...not a whole suite.

The issue I see is that well for people like me I use an program called APT (http://www.ideiki.com/astro/) to control my DSLR exposures (others use BYE (http://www.backyardeos.com/), or some more exotic package like maxim DL. and so forth). APT and BYE software packages use PHD for dithering images etc. So it's not that simple to dump PHD for lin-guider.

There are knock on effects.

As is with all software this is a price to pay...which will turn users away. Conformity is the key...that's why ASCOM and things like EQMOD are so popular. Prior to ASCOM it was pretty much a dogs breakfast on telescope and accessory control software conformity.

Same issue here...we need Linux ASCOM or small microcomputers that can run windows. Don't forget with windows we can downsize the OS package using things like nlite.

[pmrid]

Worth noting that the PandaBoard has a genuine RS232 built in. Hmmm!
Peter

[rmuhlack]

probably also worth drawing your attention to this thread from earlier in 2012, and my success at getting ascom, eqmod and BYE running under linux/wine

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=92445

[wasyoungonce]

Now that is the Cat's Pajamas.

Well done indeed. How did you get BYE running under this? I read it's windows only.???:shrug:

I have a old computer I might get it up and running this this a shot, although I think I cannot use the ASCOM interface for my Gemini (Gemini ASCOM.net) driver as stellarium uses kinda it's own generic LX200 driver set.I saw some post by barrykgerdes on this...might also be able to use stellariumscope to insert ASCOM drivers to stellarium..edit: already done (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/63-581-0-0-1-0.html)..

Have also been looking at linguider, QHY guider drivers for Linux. Wether this will run on a ARM board...who knows? I guess there is only one way to tell!

Pity the skyX isn't Linux compatible as this has plenty of ASCOM plugins.

[rmuhlack]

Pretty sure that once I had installed .NET under wine that I was then able to install BYE. I'm on holidays interstate this week so i'll check when I get back home. I wasn't able to install the windows version of PHD guiding under wine at the time and haven't looked at it since. the linux version (openPHD) uses the INDI protocol rather than ASCOM, so i'm not sure if you can 'mix' the two.

Dunno whether all this would work on an ARM board - as you say only one way to find out!

[RickS]

Wine doesn't do instruction set emulation so it doesn't provide the ability to run x86 Windows executables on an ARM processor.

Cheers,
Rick.

[rmuhlack]

well there you go - that answers that question - thanks Rick

[Nortilus]

im looking at using an Asus EeePC and using remote desktop to control it. I will just make a Network cable long enough to run into my house (max of about 90metres for Cat5/5e/6 before repeater). 10/100 network is heaps enough bandwidth for this.
You can run windows xp on these little devices. Setup a network drive back to your main PC so all data is not locally saved on the device. Should work like a champ. You can also upgrade these things by yourself. Put larger SSDs in them, more Ram. they run off an external powerpack. you can get larger batteries for them if needed.
I think this would be the easier option than messing with linux based devices such as the RPis...

[rmuhlack]

where's the fun in that :P

[Poita]

Yeah, but by the time you option it up you may as well use a full blown laptop.

[Nortilus]

look on ebay or 2nd hand...they sometimes come up for less than $100 for a system that is more than enough.
You could always go the way of the miniITX motherboard and build a custom waterproof casing for it (only to stop dew). They are mostly passively cooled and have everything onboard apart from a hard drive.

[wasyoungonce]

I run all my set-up from an ACER Aspire one, 11.1"...pretty much like an eepc. Sure it's not power packed but has plenty of ability to do the job I require so far.

However I cannot see how to easily mount this on my mount or OTA, I have to be within a few meters of the mount to run USB/RS232 cables to it.

I even built a DIY +12V DC/4 port USB (powered) distribution hub and mounted this on the OTA/dovetail. This runs all my on-board equipment from the Acer via one USB cable (although I capability for another USB cable). I also use BT wireless for RS232 control......but It would be much simpler to have a mini system on the mount that can do all this, connected by Ethernet, run it from a lappy from any distance.

Of course Dew controller power is kept far away from all this at the front of my OTA.

Anyway that's my opinion...mileage may vary depending upon your equipment and this is growing!

[wasyoungonce]

Found there is quite a lot of windows embedded support for ARM processors....though don't know the details....looks as if this could cost a bit.

Like windows 7 compact for the beagleboard (http://www.adeneo-embedded.com/en/Products/Board-Support-Packages/BeagleBoard).

Lots of other windows embedded packages (http://www.adeneo-embedded.com/en/OS-Technologies/Windows-Embedded) available (see here (http://components.arrow.com/manufacturers/microsoft/?guid=3873&tab_id=BeagleBundle) ). I'm not sure of the details or capabilities of all this.

edit:actually the embedded OS might be windows CE...not sure it's listed under Beagleboard wiki here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beagleboard). And CE wiki here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_CE).

[RickS]

Microsoft reintroduced Windows for ARM architectures with Windows 8 after dumping it years back in the days of Windows CE. ARM is a much better choice for low-power devices like phones and tablets than the x86 architecture (but Intel may manage to fix this one day...)

Availability of Windows for ARM doesn't mean you can take a binary Windows application from a PC and run it on ARM Windows. You need to cross compile it from source code to make an ARM binary. Sometime the source code will also need to be modified if it hasn't been written with portability in mind. For commercial products, it will be up to the vendors to decide if this effort is worthwhile, so there is no guarantee that your favorite Astronomy applications will be available.

[wasyoungonce]

Thanks Rick...I was reading the Arrow site and most embedded package software didn't have source code available (some in binary only), some did and of course there is a NDA.

[Tandum]

I ran an eeep box in the dome for some time. I pulled it eventually as there were not enough usb ports. I wouldn't want to do that on less than an atom, the eeep was pretty slow to respond as it was.

[wasyoungonce]

Hi Robin funny enough I have started looking at other small form factor boards.

Known small form factors worthy of a look are:


microATX min(171 x 171)
Mini-ITX (170 X 170)
Epic (EXPRESS) (165 X 115)
MiniATX (150 X 150)
ESM (149 x 71)
Nano-ITX (120 x 120)
Com Express (125 x 95)
ESMexpress (125 x 95)
ETX/XTX (114 x 95)
Pico-ITX (100 x 72)
QSeven (70 x 70)
Mobile-ITX (60 x 60)
CoreEspress (58 x 65)

I noticed the bigger forms use an Atom where as the smaller usually a via chip-sets. Lots of complaints about the via drivers.:shrug:



It's another method worth exploring. I still have lots to look at but the pricing of some are outrageous.

[chaffingbuttock]

There are a few pricier options out there..

http://www.cnet.com.au/intels-nuc-goes-on-sale-in-australia-339342689.htm

AMD livebox (can't find any local information on that)

http://www.fit-pc.com/web/fit-pc/fit-pc2-i/

[pmrid]

I have 2 of these fitPC2s. One is the original which is pretty slow and can't be pimped much. The other is the fitPC2i with a 2 Ghz CPU. It runs as hot as hell - so much so that I have fitted a heat sink on the top of the case with a fan as well. It works OK though.

Peter

[wasyoungonce]

Thanks Matthew...I haven't seen the NUC before. Interesting...uses the i3u CPU...which from all accounts isn't a power house but is capable and low power device.

Uses internal SSD (PC case gear make no mention of this) and is only around 100mm square! One Gigabit LAN; 3 USB but no mention of wireless except to say it has an inbuilt antenna? They also have 2 HDMI out...I cannot fathom why? Built for home entertainment systems I guess?

So, the NUC is a little limited a little pricey but not too bad. Indeed something worthy of a bit of a more look at.

I have seen the fit2PC and their other versions, fit3 PC etc, thanks, they really cost quite a bit. Am also looking at other form factors atm.

Looks as if going to Raspberry Pi (or such like) would be a disaster due to lack of ability to run windows, ASCOM etc.

This pretty much re-draws the boundaries back to windows capable machines with small form factor.:sadeyes:

[chaffingbuttock]

NP Brendan,

I wonder if a thin client setup may work? Again, I know nothing about all of this or whether it's possible or not. We have thin clients set up at work (which aren't actually thin cause they're full desktops), but it's a bit different cause each computer is actually fully functional with grunty hardware inside, but all of the programs are run off the server (graphics run locally I think). There are some very small thin clients available i.e. here (http://www.thinvent.in/products/thinclient/micro/m2) and here (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/TS100-Multi-User-Net-Computer-Thin-Client-Network-Terminal-/170924342145?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item27cbe27b81)

I realise that you'd still need to run things from a computer, but for the backyard astronomer, that's easy enough and you'd just have to run the ethernet cable into the house). If you're talking about portable setups, then back to square one!

[chaffingbuttock]

here's one (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/TS100-Multi-User-Net-Computer-Thin-Client-Network-Terminal-/170924342145?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item27cbe27b81) with full on USB 1.1 support! I'm sure there are others that have USB 2.0 or better. Might see a bump in physical size though.

[chaffingbuttock]

Another pricy option just announced here (http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/04/velocity-micro-unveils-tiny-edge-mini-cruz-d610-and-q610/)

[wasyoungonce]

Ok, so far. Looks like the x86 architecture (in small form factor) is be best to stay with ATM due too driver and software conformity, aka you can use net-framework, ASCOM and common astro software packages.

From what I can currently see, the Fit2PC is a decent proposal for this, just 101mm x 115mm x 27mm (height) and reasonably cheap if purchased directly from the OEM (http://www.fit-pc.com/web/purchase/). Be careful if purchasing in that some options come without wireless and there is not much mention on what alternate cards may work so best to buy with the OEM card installed. Another plus for this is they have XP and win7 drivers...nice...for old backward folk like me that are sticking with XP, knowing if I really have to move on, Win7 will work.

Another possibility is the intel Next Unit Computing (http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/motherboards/desktop-motherboards/next-unit-computing-introduction.html) (NUC), 116mm x 112mm x 39mm (height). Now these use i3u processors so are more powerful than the the fit2PC atoms but they appeared aimed for the multimedia market. As such have qty 2 HDMI ports and up to 5 USB ports (depends on model), inbuilt wireless antenna, no mention of wireless, probably you need to use either the spare PCI express or half PCI express slot card for this. I guess you fit a HDD (either SSD or std) via one of these or USB port. Also 2 SO-DIMM slots of 1333 or 1600mhz RAM, so you can load up the RAM.

ATM the fit2PC looks the better option. It is a known package that works. Both systems can work without a display connected but you need to connect a display for set-up, install etc. I'll be buying a fit2PC soon. I just cannot resist.:lol:

Matthew...I don't know about the "thin client's", since they are Linux I suspect they will not work.

The idea of using a Raspberry Pi (or similar ARM board) sound good but the limitations of lack of ASCOM support or windows support (to run your favourite Astro programs) kills it dead.

Any other inputs on small form factor systems are welcome but unless we can ensure they can run windows & ASCOM then they will always be limited for ability to do astro work.... for the common folk.


Pity linux running ASCOM would be real nice indeed!

[chaffingbuttock]

Maybe someone knows how these cpuless thin clients work? From what I can find on the internet, you even run the operating system of the server. They say you can run up to about 40 instances of a single home system (win 7) or up to 300 off a server system (Windows server 2003). This is different to the thin client that I'm used to, which had its own operating system and hardware which then accesses programs off the server. If this is the case, you'd just need one with usb2 and a long network cable to another computer (plus the requisite power connection). I'll see if I can find more information on the topic

[mswhin63]

Until Linux is running on ASCOM I will be sticking with mini computer. They are quite cheap. I am running 1GHz 512MB RAM and manage satisfactorily APT, PHD, TeamViewer and a number of other software. I am now running Splashtop Streamer as well so I can control using my Android Tablet while watching a movie with the wife (Boss)

I will be upgrading though to a different one with higher processing power and 1G min later but so far fine for now.

[Tandum]

I think you'll find they run a MIPS chipset like a modem etc and have Remote Desktop Protocol client software embedded into them.

[RickS]

These thin clients aren't completely CPUless. They are typically based on a low-cost, low-power system on chip (usually ARM) and run an embedded operating system (often Linux based). All that runs on the thin client is a basic OS and a software client that is capable of running a keyboard and display and responding to commands from a server. These commands are sent using one of a number of protocols designed for this purpose, e.g. Microsoft's RDP (remote desktop protocol). Applications run on the server and only keyboard and display data goes back and forward between the client and the server.

A desktop thin client isn't really a solution to the problem being discussed in this thread.

That's not to say that other client/server technology isn't useful. If the INDI library (http://indilib.org/) becomes widely adopted then you would be able to use a small device mounted on the scope that just takes care of the interfaces to the mount, focuser, cameras, etc. and talks over Ethernet or WiFi to applications running on your laptop or even on a server anywhere on the Internet. You can do this already if you are happy to limit yourself to a small set of Linux applications.

Cheers,
Rick.

[RickS]

G'day Robin. I must have been halfway through my response when you sent yours :) I haven't seen many small SOCs based on the MIPS architecture lately. There are probably still some around at the higher end but even guys like Cavium who have been MIPS forever appear to be switching to ARM.

Of course, what's inside is becoming increasingly irrelevant...

Cheers,
Rick.

[Pi_in_the_Sky]

Hi all,
Just found this interesting thread while trying to sort out some of my issues and I hope you don't mind me joining in. But I thought someone might be able to benefit from my experiences.
For a start don't be too hard on the little Pi!
With a lot of work I have got my Raspberry pi to remotely control my SynScan mount.
I modified the Pi to incorporate a serial port, and this connects directly to the control pad. One of the USB ports connects to my SLR camera and the other has the wireless dongle.
The Pi might not have much processing power, but with the use of USB to IP my PC handles and controls the SLR camera with the proper PC software, and Stellarium directs the mount through an IP connection.
So I have all the benefits of staying in the warm, the PC does all the processing, the pi sits on top of the mount and runs wirelessly, with no cables to get caught up and I have modified it to run from the mounts battery!
All in all, it is a very cheap way to remotely control a telescope. :)

[wasyoungonce]

Hi Steven

Would be interested to know what Distro used and how you got it to talk and run windows apps thru it.

Any more info:D

Brendan

[Garbz]

Reading this thread with interest as my RPi is sitting next to me unused, but really this is an application for a faster computer. Can you find someone to gift you a ~4 year old laptop? Then simply use remote desktop to control your scope.

[acropolite]

Just some additional info on the Intel NUC, I've been doing some hands and feet installation work with the NUC's for Internet Kiosk applications in department stores. They can have an internal wifi board or use an external USB wifi dongle, keyboard and mouse of course just run via USB, Video is via HDMI (2 ports are available for dual screens). My understanding is that the only Disk option is SSD. They are now also available in an i5 variant, but like the i3 they are sold without RAM and SSD. With a suitable illuminated keyboard and a couple of screens they would make a nice alternative to a laptop for field work. The ones I've been working with are running win 7 quite happily, although there have been some problems with the USB wireless not initialising properly on bootup ( 8 suspect this is a driver issue).
Review http://www.itpro.co.uk/mobile/20992/intel-nuc-review-4th-gen-2013