127mm ED Triplet for $1199 at VTI Optics

[MortonH]

Since buying an Explore Scientific eyepiece from VTI I'm on their mailing list.

They're offering the HiOptic version of the 127ED triplet for $1199 plus $100 delivery.

I'm happy with my current scope collection but I imagine others may be interested. Just passing it on...:)

[AG Hybrid]

Thats got to be a mistake. They must mean the 102 ED APO? If its true the 127 ED APO is $1299 that works about $700 cheaper then getting it from the US.

[MortonH]

It's true - they confirmed it in an e-mail to me. It ships direct from the supplier. Wish I needed another scope!

Note that it's the HiOptic version, which is the same as the Meade 127 triplet, not the Explore Scientific one. So it's basically a North Group scope sold through VTI.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Hi Morton,

I wonder what the North Group are really like? I have seen a few of these come up second hand for more than that price.

Cheers Peter

[MortonH]

Never seen one, Peter, except in photos on this site!

[chaffingbuttock]

Oh no! My wallet! So tempted.. thanks for the link morton

[LewisM]

I had a North Group ED127.

Personally, I felt it had soft focus issues (even with the Moonlight with stepper motor focus) and it bloated stars more than any Skywatcher ED I ever used. It didn't warm to me at all.

One thing the North Group DID do for me was polarised me into only fluorite refractors :) Kind of a LOT more expensive, but worth it. No more ED :)

[Poita]

I think a review is here:
http://explorescientific.com/telescopes/ES127Review_v1.pdf

[Profiler]

:eyepop:$1,200 for a brand new 127mm rerfractor which clearly isn't an Achro is not a great price - it is a mind-exploding price irrespective of any QC issues which can't be too bad anyhow.

[MortonH]

I've read that Explore Scientific's quality control is better than North Group, but no personal experience with either apart from some recent ES eyepiece purchases.

[allan gould]

Be careful as the glass in the North group 127mm has changed since the original release of this scope. They definitely are NOT the same now as they were then, particularly due to the use of Chinese glass and not japanese glass in the triplette. My advice is to beware of something that is too good to be true compared to other scopes of similar specifications ie Skywatcher.

[MortonH]

The other issue is how well aligned the lens elements will be. Maybe if you're comfortable tinkering with such things it might be worth the risk. Personally, I like my Stellarvue scopes because I know Vic Maris has done the hard work for me.

[allan gould]

From some information I gleaned recently, the chap in North Group who used to do all the alignments of the triplette has relocated to Taiwan and the consensus is they are not as good as they used to be.
Allan

[Profiler]

Presumably a lot of things which are the basis of concern would be covered by warranty - however limited that might be. But $1200 for a 127 refractor that is clearly not an achro has to be fantastic value. A SW150 achro is the same price and the SWBD120 doublet is $2k+

Granted, you are not getting anything close to Tak, Televue or Vixen but in a choice between a NP127 for 7.5k+ or this hioptics scope for $1,200 it has to be attractive if for nothing else as a cheap way to get a reasonably large refractor for beginners.

[Richard Gamble]

These Ed127 apo are made by Kunming Optical.
They are sold as MaxVision, ES, Hioptics,Meade.
The OTA is the same but marketed under different brand names, it seems.
Whatever names it goes by, you get the same scope but you can pay more or you can pay less.
There is an ED127 forum group on yahoo.
Lot of discussion and comparison among the owners. Generally, the feedback is very positive for the Chinese ED127 and they deem it an exceptional value scope!
The Explore Scientific ED127 has also garnered rave reviews in the States and it is a Chinese made ED.

[allan gould]

The glass in the original 127mm scopes was Japanese HOYA FCD1 (Dense Fluor Crown) glass and were NEVER claimed to be ED glass as used in the SW 80EDs. Those manufactured now have chinese glass which was/is not hand figured as was the original triplette - hence the difference in quality and peoples experiences with these scopes.

[Profiler]

I don't know if this will help or further muddy the waters but here is a link to A&T in SA who have been selling these HiOptics for some time

http://www.telescopes-astronomy.com.au/hioptic-pricelist-telescope-astronomy-refractor.htm

Interestingly - you will see there is both an optical test but when you click on the nearby link for a review it takes you to the same review of the ES127.

[brian nordstrom]

:) All I can say is , What a Price ! and hope someone here grab's one and lets us all know how it performs , $1200 is so cheep .
I had a NG 127mm for a while and it performed very , very well , I would still have it if my Tak Mewlon 210 hadn't come along .
Hope someone gets one of these ??? :question: .
Brian.

[chaffingbuttock]

i'm quite keen, but i'm not sure if it's too heavy for my heq5 for imaging. Brendan (oncewasyoung) kindly let me have a look at his setup and the 127 is a lot larger than i thought it would be. I have absolutely no gear other than the heq5 and at 10kg all up i'm just not too sure. any opinions / advice? I'm currently (and was previously) considering one of these or maybe the sharpstar 107PH / sharpstar CF106II but the other 2 options are a bit more pricey (even more than the direct price for the 127ED at ~$1600). I'd just be looking to stick my sony 5n on the back to take some images and maybe a guidescope at a later date (i believe this one comes with a small scope, which is included in the 10kg total weight).

cheers.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Hi Richard,

That is not strictly correct. Although a seemingly identical item may be marketed under different names, it may not actually be the same. It will depend on who the scope is made for and what level of quality is required. This can mean that two identical scopes may have differing glass elements, for example. Therefore, a cheaper version may be very well that, cheaper glass used. You do get what you pay for and someone starting out may think the cheaper scope is great where an aficionado will clearly see the difference.

Cheers Peter

[Stardrifter_WA]

Totally agree Lewis. I just love my WO FLT110 flourite triplet. It is considerably better than my Orion ED80, and my ED80 is quite good.

Cheers Peter

[MortonH]

Someone with more money than me will have to be the guinea pig!

[Sarge]

Bit unfair to compare the HiOptic 127ED with a William Optics 110 fluorite. The 127ED is a very good scope for the price of around AU$1200. The WO 110 is an excellent scope for the price of around AU$4400. Aperture wise the equivalent to a 127ED would be the WO 132 fluorite, priced around AU$6000.
You cannot compare apples and oranges.:shrug:
The WO fluorite range should be seen as in the higher end of scopes, while the 127ED is in the lower to middle range.
For those of us who can't afford AU$6000 for a scope, the 127ED is a very good alternative within most of our budgets, it is suitable for both visual and AP which gives very satisfying results - in my (possibly biased) opinion :lol:

Clear skies

Rod
:D:D

[MortonH]

Agree with your point but not your prices :P

FLT110 is $2799 at Andrews. FLT132 a bit closer at $5499. Not that I'm spruiking anyone. :D

[Stardrifter_WA]

I paid less than that for the FLT110 (DDG focuser model) with a field flattener ($584 worth) thrown in as a bonus. :D Landed, after GST /Customs costs, about $2600.

[Sarge]

Your right MortonH, Andrews is cheaper. I got the prices from Advanced Telescope Supplies
http://www.atscope.com.au/williamopt.html

Clear skies

Rod
:D:D

[cometcatcher]

Is this a short term special only? I'd like to get one but it will take me a couple of months to save for it.

[MortonH]

Suggest you contact James at VTI Optics. His communication with me about eyepieces has been very good.

[MortonH]

James at VTI contacted North Group and they have advised that the ED glass is Hoya FCD1, which I think is the same as the Explore Scientific ED127.

[Profiler]

Hi Morton

I suspected this would be the case but I didn't want to cause waves. It is a real dilemma because $1,200 for a brand new 127mm refractor is a fantastic price and makes you seriously ponder how superb optical quality would stack up against raw larger aperture. For example, how much more you might see with a 3.2k+ TSA102 versus one of these 127.

If I were to speculate on the basis for the relative price drop I suspect it is probably more due to shifting production lines of these Chinese "generic" refractors from these older models which we currently know and recognise towards the newer, improved versions - one incarnation of the new versions being the new Meade 6000 series for example.

[MortonH]

I think a couple of years ago when some IIS members were buying the ED127 direct from North Group it was around this price. But of course, there were some issues (dodgy focuser for example).

Might depend whether you believe the branded models undergo additional quality control over these "direct" models. I have no technical skills so I want it to be perfect out of the box, but others are prepared (and have the ability) to overcome a few imperfections that might be present.

[brian nordstrom]

;) Yes , another vote for Flourite , its just amazing .
Brian.

[brian nordstrom]

:D Kevin , looks like you may be the Guinea pig we are all waiting for , I like you hope this price stays like it is for a few more months , Christmas time and all :question: .
Brian.

[brian nordstrom]

:D Hi Peter , and yes ' Raw apateure ' will win every time , then optical quality comes into it , thats why I sold my NG 127 triplet and now have a Takahashi Mewlon 210 , there is no comparisim in these two scopes , as good as the 127mm was ( and it was very good ) the Tak is a way better scope optically and mechanically , sorry to say .
But $1200 ,, whew ! .
This price will get lots into middle end scopes , great ! for our hobby .
Thanks , Hi Optic .
Brian.

[cometcatcher]

Lol, great. I hope it doesn't turn out like that LP90. Should be better though being a triplet. And I'm really not that fussy. I don't care how bad the focuser is, as long as the optics let me take photos with less CA than a plain achromat. Perfection is for the rich. :P

[MortonH]

Do a search for "North Group" in these forums and you'll find lots of happy owners of the ED127. The focuser thing is important actually. There used to be two versions, one for visual and one for astrophotography. But many people upgraded to a Moonlite, so factor in that potential additional cost.

[cometcatcher]

Short / medium term the focuser should be okay. In my case it only has to take 800 grams of DSLR and field flattener.

[brian nordstrom]

;) Kevin , look at my sig , I have just finished building a 127mm Istar Achromat , f/8 , and well these are lenses , $ 384 au delivered to your door from the good old USA , hand figured in an awsome cell ,
Here is a photo .
Istar lenses come from Russia .
I hear some great lenses are comming from there .
Good for us Joe Astronomers .
Brian.

[brian nordstrom]

;) Morton , and others , I have the origonal 11/1 focuser off my NG 127 after I fitted a FT3035 , ( thats a focuser !!!! :) ) but anyway the origonal is still sitting in my box of parts , Its Carp! I wont even give it away .
True , I made an adaptor to fit it on to my Istar 127mm ,,,, ;).
Thats why My Istar still has its origonal 1 1/4 Vixen focuser ,, yea Mort , they are ( were? ) that bad .
Brian.

[MortonH]

Exchanged a couple more e-mails with VTI about their stock of eyepieces and James mentioned they've received their first order for the ED127. Wonder if it was someone here? :question:

[casstony]

Yup :)
They must be still building it though - I ordered on the 14th and it's still marked 'Awaiting shipment'. I expect it will be of similar quality to previous samples, but it's nice to have an Australian warranty if there happens to be a significant optical defect (aside from a little blue fringing which appears normal for this objective).

[MortonH]

Nice one, Tony. Hope it doesn't take too long to arrive!

[Astro_Bot]

Would a minus violet filter take care of that or would it require something more substantial?

[casstony]

The slightly out of focus blue wavelengths would only be an issue for imaging; I've read that imagers adjust the focus slightly towards blue to avoid fringing around bright stars and I guess it's not a problem for mono imaging.

[cometcatcher]

But... blue fringing is the very thing I want to get away from, since I will be using it for photography.

[Larryp]

I have the 102mm North Group triplet, and it doesn't show any blue fringing-in fact it shows no colour error at all!

[MortonH]

Colour error increases with aperture, all other things being equal. Maybe 127mm is the point where it becomes visible with this particular lens, but also possible is that there is some variability in how the lenses are put together in the cell, which means some are better than others. Clearly you have a good one, Laurie!

[Larryp]

Yeah-very happy with mine!

[casstony]

My 127 has shipped. I'll give a report on the scope once it arrives. I'm not an imager but I've got a DSLR I can put on the back to image something bright and see if there's a blue fringe. We're moving house over Xmas so I probably won't get to test the scope until the new year.

[casstony]

The 127 arrived yesterday and I managed to get a look through it last night in poor conditions. The optics look decent with no glaring faults (checked for astigmatism, decentering, zones, spherical aberration). The test certificate supplied with the scope claims a smooth 1/4 wave peak to valley and that fits with what I see (ie. uniform, concentric, well defined out of focus rings with some difference in brightness between inside and outside focus).

Jupiter showed about the detail I'd expect at 100x with no visible chromatic aberration. A bright star had to be carefully focused to avoid a blue fringe which fits with what others have reported with these scopes (ie. blue doesn't come to quite the same focus as the other wavelengths).

The case is of good quality and makes a handy bench to sit the scope on, but there was a lot of black dust from the foam on the optical tube and the tube was not in a plastic bag. The metal lens cap was not screwed onto the objective and there are finger prints on the lens. The rings were not square to the handle/dovetail and there are several scratches through the paint. Some packing foam between the tube and dew shield was doubled over making the shield very difficult to remove initially. The 10:1 focuser was not properly attached to the focuser body.

After fixing all of the little niggles I'm left with a reasonable quality scope with some scratches in the paint. I'm curious to hear what condition other 127's have arrived in if others have ordered. I'll do another optical check at higher mag when conditions allow.

On another note my new backyard is a lot darker after shifting house this week - no streetlights shining into the yard and no neighbours lights even though we're in town and no heavy industry in the area.

[MortonH]

I ordered another eyepiece from VTI yesterday and they mentioned that they have received another two orders for this scope. It will be interesting to see if they have the same issues as yours.

VTI also mentioned that they do their own QC check on the eyepieces before shipping to customers, but obviously they can't do any checks on these scopes as they are shipped direct from the manufacturer. Have to say I'd be a bit disappointed with these issues, even for the price. The scope should be clean, properly assembled and carefully packed.

Did you manage to square off the rings to the dovetail or is something out of alignment?

[casstony]

The issues are disappointing and demonstrate a general lack of care. The rings were easy to fix by loosening the bolts - an extra 5 seconds and they could have been properly assembled in the first place, perhaps avoiding the scratches on the tube.

[MortonH]

Do you reckon the excess blue from the lens might also be due to a lack of care in aligning the elements? Or just from the design and/or type of glass used?

From older posts about North Group scopes I'm guessing that most people consider the lens to be quite good and it's simply the assembly of the complete telescope that is a bit haphazard. They might as well sell all the components as a DIY kit!

[casstony]

I think the blue is just part of the design Morton. It's only a small amount and some people will notice while others will consider it a full apo, but it's not as good as the top tier apochromats and priced accordingly. Some blue fringe will show up on the brightest objects when imaging unless you adjust slightly away from best focus - again that's going to bother some folks and not others.

[MortonH]

Useful info, Tony. What about the focuser? In the past a lot of people said it should be replaced asap. Wonder if the design has been improved at all?

[Profiler]

I am certainly not defending poor assembly/QC nor wanting to be seen advocating these refractors but just for some broader context concerning a 127mm refractor that is clearly not an achro for $1,200 with some of the top shelf brands

Televue NP-127is - $7,599 (note this is actually a Nag/Petzvel Quad element design - not a triplet)

Takahashi TOA-130NS - $6,961
Takahashi TOA-130NFB - $8,647

Please note that both of the Tak's are strictly OTA only - so the price is for the OTA and absolutely nothing else presumably packed in two authentic made in Japan super high quality cardboard boxes:rofl:
No case, rings, diagonal, finderscope or bracket etc

Televue do however kindly toss in their own very nice hard case but once again their price is OTA only so no diagonal, rings or finder of any description for the modest sum of $7.6k.

Somewhere between these two extremes of HiOptics and Tak/Televue are the likes of WO with their commensurate prices - I think a WO FLT132 is about $5.5k these days.

[MortonH]

Some good points, Profiler. If you expect TV or Tak quality for $1200 then obviously you're going to be disappointed. But it's interesting if you compare to other scopes of 'similar' size/price. For example, Andrews has the Skywatcher achro 120mm for $799, while the Black Diamond 120ED doublet is $2299. So the price of the HiOptic really is close to that of a comparable size achromat.

I hope someone in Sydney gets one as I'd love to compare it to my Stellarvue 110ED, a very well corrected doublet.

[casstony]

I think the design is the same as the earlier scopes and the focuser isn't great, the main issue being that it doesn't hold the diagonal securely - if the diagonal moves, collimation goes out. Somewhere I saw a focuser tune up for this scope and the focuser can be made to work well enough.
EDIT: I later found that the TV diagonal I used did not work well with the focuser compression ring whereas a WO style bevelled diagonal nosepiece is held securely.

[RobC]

I purchased both an ED80 amd ED127 ( carbon fibre ) from the North group in July this year, with their updated focusers, Cannot detect any blue wavelength problems with 5 or 10 minute exposures and the focusers work like a dream with my Cannon 60D. I switch between the two for imaging and guiding.

So I am very happy with mine.

[MortonH]

They used to offer two focuser options - one for visual only and the other for astrophotography. Is that still the case? And if so did you go with the astrophotography version?

[RobC]

I purchased their promoted ( astrophotography ) focuser for both scopes. From my understanding this is an updated version of their intial astrophotography focuser. I use a batinov mask to get precise focus.

Regards

Rob

[Sarge]

I am absolutely rapped with my NG CF 127ED. Cannot fault the optics at all. I did replace the focuser with a Moonlite, as NG just does not make a decent focuser. Scope works perfectly sitting on top of my NEQ6.

Best couple of grand I ever spent!!
:thumbsup:
Clear skies

Rod
:D:D

[Profiler]

Hi Morton

Yes - that is one of my points made much earlier on this thread - we are dealing with something that is incredibly cheap and priced pretty close to what you typically get for an achro of comparable size.

For folks getting into astronomy or someone who simply wants a big refractor for visual use I can't see how you can go too wrong at this price. However, for AP use then I agree folks are certainly going to be more discerning.

[Larryp]

I ordered my 102mm with their photographic focuser. It arrived with part of the focuser missing, and when I got the missing piece, it still fell apart!. Replaced it with a Moonlite, and its brilliant!

[RobC]

Laurie,

I purchased the AstroPhotography focuser. The one on the 127 ED was a bit loose and I tightened the retaining screws. Apart from that they both work like a charm. Takes me about five shoots to get precise focus using a batinov mask. Admittedly I am only using a DSLR , not sure how they would handle the additional weight of filter wheels , but I have done a fair bit of imaging just before the meridan without any slippage.

If I could work out how to attach images to these threads I would send you some photos of the focuser to see if they are the same as the ones you purchased.

Regards

Rob

[Larryp]

Bob,
I'm sure my focuser would be the same as yours-the difference is you got one that worked!
I sent mine back to North Group, and they replaced it with the standard focuser. But I had already bought the Moonlite, which is absolutely superb.
Regards
Laurie

[jjjnettie]

Curses to you....:(
Delivery charge to my place was quoted at $87
I guess mine will be here in time for New Moon.

[allan gould]

Can anyone explain why the same scope badged as ES or hioptic can be sold for a difference of $800 by the same dealer? Is it the same scope? IDN.
Caveat emptor

[MortonH]

I was told that ES imposes a minimum price on its resellers but for the HiOptic version there's no such restriction.

Remember that ES has additional QC over the HiOptic version. I don't think anyone would expect to receive an Explore scope with the issues that Tony described.

[Profiler]

Another point for some perspective as to why these generic 127 models are becoming much cheaper is that a new design is now on the horizon - the first examples/incarnation being under the badge of 'Meade 6000 series' refractors (these 127's being examples of the previous Meade 5000 series). Examples of the 6000 series can be found on the Bintel site.

[casstony]

Just adding a comment on the very minor CA with these scopes and more generally with any achromat or fast ED refractor:
if a particular objective design is not capable of bring all desired wavelengths to the same focus the designer can choose to let the blue end of the spectrum go out of focus or the red end go out of focus. While red wavelengths are more important for planetary viewing the eye is more sensitive to blue so observers are more likely to complain about blue chromatic aberration. Designers can choose to bias correction towards the blue end to keep customers happy, but those same customers are unaware that they are losing out on planetary detail.

So in less than perfect apochromats visual observers benefit from best correction at the red end of the spectrum.

I'd read about this from respectable sources many years ago, then there wasn't much about it on the forums for a long time, but recent threads on cloudy nights have reiterated the point.

[MortonH]

Do we know if the lens has changed in the Meade 6000 or just the quality of the tube and components?

[casstony]

I suspect it's a different lens made by a different company and also a little higher quality (and higher price). I went looking for images through the 6000 a while back and it seems like a very nice scope. A scope with the same appearance and specs has been sold in Europe for some time now. (I'll find the name and post it here)

[MortonH]

Probably this one:

http://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p3041_TS-PHOTOLINE-115-800mm-Triplet-APO---3--Crayford-1-11.html

[casstony]

There's a few places selling 6000 look alikes, here's another: http://www.altairastro.com/product.php?productid=16494

[MortonH]

Saw that Altair one before. Their branded scopes seem to have received decent reviews in the UK. But again I wonder if the lens is better or it's just the mechanics of the scope, and presumably the QC issues you encountered would be much less likely.

[MortonH]

Found this review of the Altair 115 triplet. Sounds impressive and possibly a notch above the HiOptic models, but with a commensurate price increase.


https://www.altairastro.com/public/115-F7-APO/Review%20Altair%20115-805%20ED%20Triplet%20APO%20Astronom y%20Now%20Magazine%202011%20(compre ssed).pdf

[spacezebra]

You going a Triplet JJJ? sweet!




Cheers Petra d.

[jjjnettie]

Less spending money now for Spacefest. :(

[spacezebra]

I must admit Im pretty happy with the 102 - its delivering superb views.

Cheers Petra d.

[wulfgar]

I could hazard a guess that the glass merchants are getting rid of their stocks of FPL-51 and its equivalents. So the Scope uses the advertising point of "ED" triplet obscuring the fact that it is a very ordinary type of ED.

[casstony]

FPL51 is still a very useful glass type and I doubt it will be disappearing anytime soon. FPL53 allows the same performance as FPL51 (both with apropriate mating elements) at a shorter focal length. A lot of factors contribute to making a good refractor including cost and availability of ED glass types and mating elements, care taken with grinding and polishing and stability of the lens cell.

[MortonH]

Vic Maris at Stellarvue has said many times that the mating element is just as important as the "headline" element of FPL-53, FPL-51 or whatever. It's also dependent on how well put together they are. I've seen this myself with my SV110ED which has less colour error than a William Optics 80ED of the same focal ratio and both using FPL-51. All other things being equal, the Stellarvue should show more colour since it has a larger aperture, but it does not. Hence all other things are not equal, and one of those things is the additional effort Stellarvue puts in to get the lens "as good as it can be" in Vic's own words.

In terms of getting rid of FPL-51 stocks, I've read that the price of Japanese "FPL" glass has increased significantly and therefore it's only getting more and more likely that the cheaper scopes will be using FCD1 or FK61 or other Chinese equivalents, which may or may not match FPL for colour correction, homogeneity or any other characteristic you care to mention.

[Larryp]

What you say about Stellarview lens is quite true, My Nitehawk 80mm f7 doublet shows no visible colour error using FPL51

[Profiler]

I only briefly looked at the new scopes some weeks ago and from what I remember everyone is generally correct that these new models (e.g. Meade 6000 series) are using a different type of glass from the previous generation (eg the 127mm $1,200 badged HiOptics) and they feature an improved larger focuser. No comment from me on what is the actual quality/performance of any of these different design features but to get a general impression for comparison purposes between the two generations specs and marketing blurbs for the Meade 6000 refractors are available on various websites.

[MortonH]

Are the new Meade scopes actually in the wild yet? Couldn't find any reviews of them.

[wulfgar]

That's precisely the issue. In theory an apochromat can be made from ordinary glass, but the curvatures of the element figures becomes something wicked. This in the past limited practical apochromats to very long focal lengths.
Generation one style ED enabled practical shorter designs in both true apo triplets and "semi-apo" doublets, but F7.5 is very short and more the province of the later generation ED's.
Chromatic aberration isn't the only issue with a refractor and these short focal lengths that are popular for imaging face increasing other problems that the old F15 standard for achromats never had to deal with.
But the introduction a third element risks the loss of more contrast due to scattered light which is perhaps part of the reason that "semi-apo" doublets remain popular.
I tried my old Vixen 102 triplet fluorite against a friends later doublet version. Racked slightly in and out of focus the triplet remains dead white while the doublet shows color. Is it decided then? No, even though the doublet showed some color, the doublet had better contrast in other ways with a blacker sky background. I can assume the extra element also means more scattered light. You gain some to lose some, everything comes with a price. I assume that greater curvatures on the elements of fast telescopes, will scatter some more light as well.
It looks to me like these cheaper 5" triplets are trying to cash in on the reputation of high end imaging products like the Tak's.

[casstony]

The ED127 comes with a bit more CA and Spherochromatism than than a similar spec FPL53 scope, but in the end it still produces a decent image at a low price. Even my Megrez 88 works fairly well and it's a very fast FPL51 doublet - much closer to an apo than an achro.

[casstony]

I got the scope out again last night but conditions were still ordinary with jetstream overhead. Looking closely I saw some astigmatism close to focus, then I put another scope on the mount and saw exactly the same pattern so I guess it's time to visit the optometrist again :)
Trapezium E was solidly visible at 100x with F coming in and out.

Note: I have to correct an earlier comment about the focuser not properly holding the diagonal; I used a Televue diagonal the first night and the safety undercut obviously doesn't mate well with the 127's compression ring since a William Optics bevelled diagonal nosepiece is held securely. The Hioptic supplied diagonal has the bevel as per WO and it appears to be of decent quality compared to a WO diagonal. The focuser is still not great but it is servicable for visual use.

[jjjnettie]

Has anyone posted any images from this scope yet?

[mr bruess]

127mm ED Triplet looks like quite a bargain.

[gregbradley]

Nice post - thanks. I noticed my old Tak FS152 was stunning visually even compared to high triplets.
Also Yuri used FL51 in the now discontinued TEC160ED.

Greg.

[jjjnettie]

Still waiting for mine to be sent.

[Tom Hancock]

Ordered on the 28th Dec, just been told, mine ship out today.
Can't wait for it to arrives.

[jjjnettie]

I ordered mine on the 30th. So maybe mine will be sent off tomorrow??

[wulfgar]

I was bit a doubter years ago, at the same time Barry Adcock was quite enthusiastic about the fluorite doublets when they first showed up. Technically only a Triplet can be an APO, however if the chromatic aberration remains at the Raleigh tolerance it could be termed a practical Apo. The amount of color aberration I saw in the Vixen doublet was hardly an issue.
I don't know why they are backtracking to triplets with the high end ed glass other than the shorter focal lengths are popular with imagers they are doing, require a triplet design to make the Raleigh tolerance. But these designs won't match the amount of general contrast that came with the fluorite doublets.

[Tom Hancock]

My ED127 arrived a few days ago!
The scope look well made and appears to be of good quality.
I cannot compare with the TAKs as I have not used one before.
Pointed it at Jupiter and the Jewel Box last night and the view through it is crisp and sharp. I compare the view with my SW120 and the ED127 is the definite winner. perhaps it is not a fair comparison as the SW is not an apo.
Despite some comments on the forums, I found the focuser to be very usable but then I am only into visual observing and not into astrophotography.
So, overall, I am happy with my new acquisition. I will be looking at selling off my SW120.

[Wavytone]

But... At high power - say around 200x on a bright star:
- can you clearly see the Airy disk and a nice set of diffraction rings ?
- when you defocus a little, is the appearance of the rings the same inside and outside focus ?
- is there a violet halo ?
- are the rings coloured ?

Secondly, does it cleanly resolve a close double star say 2-3 arc secs apart ?

Many of the short achromatic doublet refractors fail the first test - the star looks like a hard "knot" but no diffraction rings, or have a distinct violet halo.

[jjjnettie]

My scope was delayed as the manufacturer ran out of focusers.
I now have a tracking number, and it's been sitting in a TNT depot in Sydney since yesterday morning.
waiting......waiting....waiting.... .

[Tom Hancock]

Learning new things everyday!
Don't think, I can push it to 200x, as it is only 127mm aperture, which means under good condition, you are probably alright at 130x.
Had a look at the moon and Jupiter again last night. Jupiter at 100x show good details, the best I have seen so far,with no hint or visible purple or violet fringing even though Jupiter was very, very bright. The Moon at 50x also shown no visible purple or violet hue.

[brian nordstrom]

:) Tony I had a North Group 127mm triplet , same scope I think and I could get to 316x on the moon , saturn and jupiter using my 3mm TV Radian on good nights , saturn especially at that mag was awsome .
Brian.

[Larryp]

I had a Televue Pronto 70mm, with which I regularly used 200x for planetary work when the seeing allowed

[jjjnettie]

I must say I'm not impressed with the TNT delivery times.
As I mentioned previously, my scope arrived in their Sydney warehouse on the 15th Jan, estimated delivery time is the 22nd of January.
I'm glad I'm not waiting on something urgent.
Meanwhile new moon has come and gone.

[brian nordstrom]

:sadeyes: I feel for you mate , this sort of hold up is the worst kind .. They telling you why ? spiders , snakes , fungus ???
Soon be the 22nd .
Brian.

[jjjnettie]

No reason given.
I mean, it wouldn't take that much room in a truck surely.
If Andrews and Bintel's couriers can get their goods to you in just a couple of days, surely TNT can.

[Poita]

We use TNT at work, and they will overnight to just about any major place on the east coast. They do however have a much cheaper service that can take a week or two, I imagine that VTi chose that.

[Ted Manuel]

IMHO, it is very common for overseas cargo to take a week to reach your address, on arriving from overseas due to custom clearance. It is not unusual as things move slowly in the land of OZ.

[jjjnettie]

The scope arrived yesterday morning.
First light was this evening through sucker holes.
The focuser is superb. (Once I tightened all the grub screws on it.) I believe it would be capable of holding at least a couple of kilos of gear easily. I love how it has 3 locking screws. While I was imaging Jupiter, I had an extension tube, a 4x powermate and the dslr hanging off the end firmly with only the tiniest bit of slop between the extension tube and the powermate.
There is a small amount of CA, but nothing to write home about and easily fixed during processing.
I haven't taken a shot of a star field yet so can make no comment on the flatness of the field.
But oh boy, it's a monster compared to my little ED80. LOL
I can't wait to turn it onto a DSO. :)
I've posted images of Jupiter and the Moon that I took in the Solar System section.

[casstony]

Worth the wait JJ - they're bargain priced for what you get I think.
Despite some good nights I haven't had a chance to use mine again due to moving house and getting the old one spruced up to sell. I can't complain though, the new place is quite special - sloping 1/2 acre landscaped with island gardens and 20 year old trees for the kids to play in and under - and a darkish observing spot with adjacent astro cabin.

[Tom Hancock]

I agreed.http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/images/editor/smilie.gif
This is a great scope and fantastic value too.
Clear skies!

[netwolf]

I have been considering this scope for a long time now, just no budget for it. I would love to look through one and compare it side by side with the SW 120 ED or its many variations.

[David Niven]

After two whole weeks, my wallet lost the tug of war and finally succumb.
Now I am waiting in earnest for my new gadget, just can't stand the adrenalin!

[FlashDrive]

TNT .... Tomorrow - Not - Today . :D

[Sarge]

When I bought my North Group 127mm it was shipped from China by TNT. Left the factory in China on Thursday, arrived Sydney Saturday night, delivered in Melbourne Tuesday morning - now that's service.
I bought a mount from Perth - took two weeks to get from Perth to Melbourne - go figure.

Clear skies

Rod
:D:D

[brian nordstrom]

:shrug: Yes , my Zeiss took 6 days to be landed at my door here in Darwin from NZ via TNT ,
As said , ' Go figure ? '
Brian.

[Tom Hancock]

IMHO this is great scope considering it is only $1299!
I have no idea how good a TAK is for comparison. Meanwhile I am happy using it till my TATTS numbers come up.
If you have recently bought one, I would like to know your own experience and comment.

[brian nordstrom]

:) Hi Tom I had one up untill mid 2012 and it was a great scope , very good build and optics , but I drew the short straw and its focuser was a joke !! :sadeyes: .
I fitted a Feathertouch FT3035 that complimented the rest of the scope very well .

I would still have that scope but a Takahashi M210 came along at the right price and the rest is history .

Awsome scopes the NG127mm triplets and mine took 315x with my 3mm TV Radian easily if the seeing would , and that cant be sneezed at for $1200 , a bargain by any standards .
Brian.

[Nikolas]

Anymore info on these scopes?
They are up for sale again and I am interested but need some feedback from the early adopters, any good reviews folks?

[Nikolas]

hello? Anyone?

[Profiler]

Personally I thought the topic had been pretty well discussed already.

My general interpretation of the postings is that a Triplet APO ED127 sized refractor for $1300 is excellent value and a good buy provided you go into it with your eyes wide open as to what you should and should not expect.

This being you are going to get a functional, generally good 127mm sized refractor - but don't expect it to be on par or even close to any of the big name brands which typically cost about 6 to 7 times as much for roughly the same sized refractor.

If you have never had a 127mm APO refractor and/or fairly new to astronomy and want this particular type of telescope they are are a great buy.

Roughly this time last year the same telescope model when presented by another manufacturer with some patches of metalic blue paint and brand lettering starting with the letter 'M' was selling for roughly $2.5k new

[clive milne]

Have you actually looked through one or done a side by side comparison with a premium apo of similar aperture?

[Nikolas]

Cheers, was wanting to see real world examples, photos of ppanets DSO's etc. taken with this.

[Profiler]

Yes - With one of the blue incarnations I mentioned. My impression was it was very good but the TV was better. The crunch is trying to quantify whether the 'degree' of better view is worth the 'big' price difference - some might think so - others may not - unfortunately that is something you will have to decide for yourself. I suppose the best question rather than typing here is to ask yourself whether you can actually afford and then want to spend that kind of money for a 130mm Tak/TV etc

BTW - your welcome.

[Larryp]

Once you've owned a premium apo, you'll never be satisfied with a lesser one.
During my previous interest in astronomy, I owned at different times, a 5" and a 6" Starfire, a Televue Pronto and a Televue 102mm.
I now have a Stellarvue with which I am happy, but I tried some of the cheaper apos and while they were ok, I was not satisfied.

[Jan Masu]

I have seen some posted photos taken with this ED127 and they are very nice.
There are a couple of threads here,
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=102307
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=102344

Seriously thinking of selling off my LT8 Meade for one of these!
The LT8 is just getting too heavy for me to take in and out.

[brian nordstrom]

:question: I think you hit the nail on the head here Laurie , as i said my 127mm NG was a great scope , are head and sholders above a similary priced 120mm ( 5-10 years ago ) achro , but once an almost perfect Takahashi , Telvue , AP or others shows up ,,,:shrug: well mate you know what I am trying to say .
But as I said a few posts ago , there aint nothing wrong with these 127mm triplets , as far as 127mm 's go .

ps. I did not have to spend an extra $900 on a FT3035 focuser for my Takahahsi's , you get what you pay for I suppose ?

Imagine these being avaliable at this price 10 years ago ??? they are a 127mm version of what the ED80 was , of today . A bargian !
Brian.

[Satchmo]

Jan - I don't know how much an 8" SCT tube weighs but I once lifted one of these 127's out of the case and I couldn't believe how heavy the tube was !

[Nikolas]

Explore scientific ed 127mm 22 pounds which is 9.9 kgs
Celestron c8 sGT 12.5 pounds 5.7 kgs

Edit: bleagh the meade 127mm APO is weighed in at 17.7 pounds or 8 kilos, it's all over the place with google.
North group ed refractor only tube including focuser 8.1kg

[Jan Masu]

My LT8 weighs in at 14kg without the tripod!
And it suffers from condensation on a cold night.
Will purchase the ED127 once I punk the LT8 off.

[Profiler]

Yes - Unfortunately - another problem is inconsistent spec's when looking at the budget brands - hence my earlier comment about the 'lucky dip' factor and part of what you are paying for with the top tier brands is consistency and reliability in what you get.

[mithrandir]

Mark, the 127ED is definitely more work to get on and off the mount than a C8+ST80. It's not just the mass. The length makes it more awkward. I don't try to take the 127ED+ST80 off as one unit - my back won't take it.

[jjjnettie]

I took these two the other night through the ED127.
For Saturn I used a 4x powermate.
I'm sure the detail would be finer if I'd waiting for Saturn to get a bit higher in the sky. :)

[Satchmo]

That 14kg includes the complete mount , right?

You are still going to need to put the refractor tube on a german equatorial mount. It would make more sense to change over to a system were all the components are light enough for you such as a separate 8" SCT tube, rather than going down in aperture. An 8" SCT tube is a few KG lighter than the ED 127- so putting either on say an HEQ5Pro..you will still be 2 kg lighter and 250% more light with the 8"....

You'll still need dew zapping equipment with a refractor.

[Nikolas]

Wow that's awesome, is that a North Group type or Hioptic?

[Larryp]

Same scope

[Profiler]

Happy for anyone to inform me otherwise but the NG, HiOptic, ES, Meade 5000 etc etc are all the same raw generic ED127 product which are thereafter repainted and rebadged under various secondary manufacturer labels.

I believe the A&T website from SA makes this point quite clear and they were selling these ED127 under the HiOptic label before VTI came along with their record breaking price

[Profiler]

Ditto LarryP - we must have been typing at the same time but your post appeared first.

[Jan Masu]

The LT8 is almost 14kg, just the OTA!
Not to mention air tube current, poor contrast due to secondary mirror and condensation.
As they say, your scope is only as good as the number of times that you take it out. Big aperture is good but the mass is a killer to your interest.
JJ photos has convinced me of the ED127 merit.

[jjjnettie]

That's the HiOptic. But honestly, there is no difference at all between the two. Apart from the badges.

When you think about it, there is minimal change in aperture between an 8" CAT, RC or Newt and the 5" refractor. Once you take into consideration the light blocked by the secondaries.

[Satchmo]

This is incorrect. The LT8 tube plus attached fork mount is 14kg. If you want to detach the tube and put it on the scales you can correct me.

My point still stands that after you purchase a german equatorial to cart out to put the tube on you will still have a lighter carry load with an SCT tube at about 6kg . Tube currents and condensation are still a problem with refractors.

This boils down to a discussion of the relative merit of SCT vs refractor and has nothing to do with weight.


You now need to do your homework and find out how much an HEQ5 PRO equatorial head weighs with necessary counterwights for an 8kg tube !

[Jan Masu]

Well, the telescope weighs in at 30lb and the tripod is 9 lb.
Just check this out,

http://www.meade.com/lt/specifications
http://www.bintel.com.au/Telescopes/Cassegrain/Meade-LT-8--ACF/114/productview.aspx

I would presume, telescope weighs as OTA, perhaps I am wrong.
Anyway, it is too heavy and it seldom gets taken out nowadays, except on a really good evening.

[Satchmo]

'Telescope' here means tube and fork mount as they are connected .Only the tripod is listed seperately.

All I am suggesting is that you look at the weight of what you what components you will be carting out as an alternative to the EL8. Minimum of an HEQ5Pro EQ head plus counterweights - under 14kg ? I'm not sure.

And you may carry out the case that the UTA comes in to the point of the setup because generally you have to remove diagonals and finders etc to get the tube into its spot in the case and you want it all there for setup.

For example my Orion EON 120ED tube and basic fittings weighs 13.5 KG in its case... losing 250% extra light for the sake of what may be a couple of kg may not make so much sense ultimately.

[David Niven]

I have had this ED127 from VTI for just a short while now and I cannot fault it in any way.
This is a very good triplet. The finish, I would say is good to very good.
I used it visually and optically, it performs very well with just a very slight hint of CA at very high power.
I was a bit concern initially prior to my purchase about the focuser but having the scope now and using it, I would say, it is definitely up to the job.
Would it performs against a tak costing six grands or more?
That would be like comparing a Subaru WRX with a Merc AMG sports.

[Profiler]

Yes - very good comparison/metaphor of the difference between one of these ED127 with a Top tier brand like tak
WRX v Mercedes

[johnt]

Another one succumbed to this Irresistible Deal!

With all this discussion, and many positive comments, I could not resist and placed an order with VTI Optics for this scope yesterday (the "WRX" HiOptic ED127).

I'm sure the scope will get here fast, but I still have to get a mount (either Skywatcher AZEQ6GT or IOptron IEQ45 etc.), so it will be a while untill I get a chance to use it.

In the meantime, I'm finding some eyepieces, so I have them ready to go (so far Vixen LVs 5mm, 6mm, 20mm, and University Optics old (Japan) Konig 2" 25mm, 32mm and 40mm, and a University optics old style (Japan) 2" X2 Barlow). In buying eyepieces, I'm also trying to preempt future telescope purchases that they may be used with, not just the ED127.

Still looking for long (possibly old?) refractors, 4" F15, 5" F15, 6" F10, F12, F15 etc. "Stretched Limo"? , as discussed in: http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=103866

John

[Profiler]

All indications are that you have made a very wise choice - The WRX is a fantastic car all things considered - it isn't a Merc but then it was never intended to compete in the same market niche either.

[Nikolas]

Gimme a rex anytime, Fast AWD surefooted as opposed to the amg merc, which is unbelievably fast but not as surefooted.
sorry off topic :)

[Nikolas]

Thanks the Lesbehrens I have acquired a barely used by its looks north group version of this scope. It is huge! I noticed collimation marks but has anyone got any idea how these can be collimated? It probably does not need it but the knowledge is always good to have.
It's cloudy in Melbourne btw so this should a be a frustrating experience.

[wasyoungonce]

Nikolas...ES have manuals on their ES127 scopes here (http://explorescientific.com/manuals/explore_scientific_product_manuals. html). This has some info on collimation but IMHO don't touch it unless you really have to then if you need to...stop...research how to do it....get the right tools have someone to help.

But 1stly don't touch a triplet collimation....unless you really really have to. I have same scope...just a few Klms away from you! You welcome to chew the cud any-time with me on the scope or whatever.

Nettie...those images are real nice indeed. You have done a pretty damn good job and are pulling some good data and images, well done. Your M104 is starting to show dust lanes details....just a bit more data.....you will have images almost as good as I have seen by anyone using similar aperture scopes.

The 127ED is a damn fine instrument for price, some users are producing very good images with it, Gary Honis (http://ghonis2.ho8.com/450dgallery.html)and many more are proof in the pudding.

[wasyoungonce]

Yep totally agree. How much is better worth? and how much better?

Funny enough...it appears TV objectives are made in Taiwan & or Japan (http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10/Number/5688394/page/0/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/all/vc/1). TV doesn't say but it appears Taiwan. Although their older objective are probably Japan.

[Nikolas]

Cheers Brendan, thanks for the link and the advice.

[Profiler]

The CN thread makes for very very interesting reading - its amazing how much and how little actually gets made by the various manufacturers. A quality operation like Pentax are being shut down presumably because their new owners can make more money in cameras and the great new Eastern European entrant of Istar turns out to merely be mainland China glass.

I feel like a kid who has just been told that Santa doesn't really exist

[Profiler]

Interestingly, the flow chart is uncertain where Televue actually source their glass - this sounds like a secret kept under lock and key in area 51:lol:

[Stardrifter_WA]

Sorry Profiler, Santa doesn't exist anymore, it is now Synta.......bringing you the finest in optics for Xmas :lol:

[Profiler]

The spider-webs in my memory are something of a problem but I do seem to recall about 3 years ago one of the more senior folks in Bintel telling me that Televue's refractor glass comes from Japan (akin to their plossls, T6Nags, Nag zooms etc) and is made to their very particular specs in line with some of their specific designs (NP-101 etc)

[Nikolas]

Is he From New Zealand?
:D

[wasyoungonce]

Could be.....;)

[BPO]

Visually, not many people could differentiate the optics of a "cheap" but decent Chinese made instrument and those from the likes of even Takahashi. It's not until you start using them for astrophotography that the difference even becomes discernible.

Obviously a Tak is going to excel in such a comparison, but then again it damn well better considering the massive price difference.

For instance, the Synta 120 doublet glass (in my case inside a Sky-Watcher Equinox 120) is superb, especially considering just how much more you have to spend on a premium brand name to better it. These 127 mm triplets may not be the top-of-the-line TOAs or FSQs, but a competent APer can produce results that make you think otherwise.

And replacing the admittedly sometimes lesser quality focusers with a MoonLite or FT is well worth the expense, because even then the total is still much less than a premium brand, while the capability increases even more.

[Profiler]

Yep - that is a good summary and in line with my previous comment on how exactly do you go about and quantify the 'better' dimension versus the extra amount you have to spend to obtain that extra degree of 'better'.

A few other factors however to also keep in mind are consistency in the purchased product (i.e. quality control etc), extent and most importantly 'bona fides' of the warranty that comes with the product and re-sale value.

As a real life allegory two months ago I purchased a pair of no-name brand sneakers from Big W for an amazing $15! They were fantastic for exactly 3 weeks but now the soles have collapsed and the cheap plastic inside cuts into my foot and they are generally falling apart. I purchased a pair of Addidas sneakers 9 years ago for $240. I don't go jogging in them everyday and realistically wear them on average once every 2 weeks or so. Naturally, after 9 years they show some wear and are a little dirty with age but they are still very good and in better general condition than my $15 pair of sneakers.

[Stardrifter_WA]

I agree Profiler. Whenever I read comments about price vs. quality I am always reminded by what John Ruskin (1819 -1900), an art critic and philanthropist, said:

“It’s unwise to pay too much, but it’s unwise to pay too little. When you pay too much you lose a little money, that is all. When you pay too little you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing you bought it to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot. It can’t be done! If you deal with the lowest bidder it’s well to add something for the risk you run. And if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better.”

Furthermore, he went onto to say:

“There is hardly anything in the world that some man can not make a little worse and sell a little cheaper and the people who consider price alone are this man’s lawful prey.”

Sums it up, to a fair degree, I think. I know I am always mindful of this. I would always rather pay more knowing, with reasonable certainty, that I will get what I pay for. Certainly minimises any 'post purchase dissonance', as I am usually well satisfied, in my own mind, at least.

Cheers Peter

[Profiler]

A brilliant post

[wasyoungonce]

That's how the Aircraft industry works even in Military Aircraft......usually cheapest bidder win tender.

Works for them....;)

[Profiler]

Yes - but no one wants to be on the bad one off the production line when the wings fall off the plane.

[dannat]

I seem to remember a Cn thread stating TV uses Japan glass which is assembled in Taiwan the finished In The US eg testing etc, ep's are the same I think

[Stardrifter_WA]

Wouldn't worry about it.....gotta die of somethin' :D Just gotta hope it is later than sooner......preferably much later. Someone said to me recently that the trouble is that I am getting older. I told him that I have no problem with that, as long as I keep getting older. :lol:

[Astro_Bot]

Indeed. It's not the ageing that kills you, but rather the lack of it. :lol:

[Stardrifter_WA]

Yep! And for those that think life is a joke........just remember the punch line! :lol:

[Profiler]

Dan

TV EPs are entirely made/assembled by sub-contracted factories to TV in either Japan or Taiwan (dependent on which particular model of EP - for example T6 Nags - Japan, Panoptics - Taiwan). Thereafter, every single EP is sent over to TV in the US and each EP is thereafter QC/tested by TV in their own workshop to check that each EP is to their specs and standards.

However, with the exception of the great mystery as to where the refractor glass is actually smelted (from Japan but precisely which manufacturer) every other element of making their refractors is done in TV's own facility in the US. I should add that they now use feathertouch focusers but previously made their own.

They also have a quite unique production process which involves a single craftman assembly system. So, the production process doesn't involve the common A-B-C-D-E stepped passage production line from multiple workers specialising in a particular step but a single craftman who makes the entire scope from start to finish and thus undertakes each step (i.e. one person does all steps A through to E).

Via this process when any TV scope comes in for a repair/clean etc they can identify who made each particular scope by the serial number and it is then given to that same craftman who will undertake any necessary work etc - hence their claim about each scope is genuinely hand-made.

[Nikolas]

Gave the NG version a whirl tonight, Jupiter is as clear as a bell even with the 6mm. Lost a bit of detail with the 6mm and the 4x powermate as the conditions were warmish.
No visible CA. Took a look at Orion's nebula, gorgeous. Finally the fullish moon but it was waaay too bright, details were there though. Very impressive scope. There is some field curvature with a wide eyepiece, so photography may need a field flattener. Will the f6.3 celestron work?
I think I will be selling the SGT C8 as I doubt I will be using it much.

[johnt]

Back on the VTI Optics ED127... (Edited: Ok, Nikolas must have beat me to it by a few seconds!)

I got an email from VTI Optics asking me to check the TNT parcel for damage before accepting it etc.. and refuse to accept it if it looks damaged...

I assume no one has had a problem yet with damaged ED127 scopes via TNT from China? Nothing to be concerned about I assume?

[Jan Masu]

JJ photos did a great job on the NG Hioptics ED127.
Just put in my purchase with VTI this morning.... I M happy!

[whzzz28]

I've seen some of JJJ's pictures and starting to wonder...

Does anyone else have some photo's they have taken recently with an NG or Hioptic 127?

I had an NG CF127 last year but the image quality was dismal.
Pinching of some sort somewhere that i was never able to find. Resulted in triangles taken out of stars.
Excessive star halos is another problem - especially in the blue wavelengths.

Looking at JJJ's pictures i see her bright stars also have excessive bloat as if focus is soft/out.
I am not alone it seems with those issues. This site: http://deepspaceplace.com/ed127.php
has a better write up on it, but it appears that the blue wavelength color corrections are sloppy and or chromatic abberations are quite high. This can be partly corrected with refocusing if using a mono camera with blue filter, but for a OSC it isn't an option.

I've attached two photos as examples. Blue star's stick out like a sore thumb. I've checked the stacked RGB raws as well and there is a noticeable star size difference between red and blue filters (and stars).

If anyone else has photos, it would be appreciated if you can post them to see if these issues were corrected in a newer batch, or not.

Cheers.

[Nikolas]

Weather has been unkind down south, hopefully that will be rectified later this week.

[David Niven]

http://deepspaceplace.com/ed127.php

In his summary at the bottom of the article, the author is very happy with this scope.
Interesting reading though.

[wasyoungonce]

Nathan

There are plenty of users of thisscope. Indeed it comes under many badges like ES127 and most people are happy with their units.

I had a blue colour off axis flare in my optics and sent the optics back, that was around 1.5~2 years ago. NG quite happily replaced them no fuss no cost to me. The new optics have a little blue colour but this at least is on axis and I can focus it out easily and still have acceptable focus for imaging.

Focus on this scope can be critical that's why I went to stepper focus control.

Pinched optics...you should have returned the optics cell for adjustment. Pinched optics can happen on any scope indeed I have read of skywatcher and Tak scopes with pinched optics.

Some imaging users of the 127ED or derivatives of this scope are, Gary Honis (http://ghonis2.ho8.com//051612CS/051612CS.html), Vincent Molina (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&depth=1&hl=es&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.es&sl=es&tl=en&u=http://buscandocometas.blogspot.com.au/2013/02/aplanador-de-campo-flattener-para-el-es.html&usg=ALkJrhjbnNAA_7FKvHo1Hf8ip4_OHrj BEA), Mike Wiles (http://mike-wiles.blogspot.com.au/2012/11/test-report-explore-scientific-ed127.html), Chuck Kimball (http://www.artistsloft.com/astro/), our very own Houghy, (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/attachment_browse.php?a=96106) Allan Gould, Janette, Myself (http://picasaweb.google.com/105716141060206142712?gsessionid=EM g14zMxAnxuMgMFiLxMXA)(although I am hopeless).

Your images were quite good ...maybe focus was the issue or if unhappy with optics talk to the supplier. I do know of more than one user who complained sold theirs then regretted this and purchased another.:shrug:

edit:
I don't think James has a 127ED any more. There are lost of image'rs out there with the 127ED or derivatives who produce very very good images. Which convinces me the scope is a good'un its myself that is the limitation.

[Astro_Bot]

Thanks for the confirmation. I'm saving for one. :thumbsup:


I came to a similar realisation years ago: buying more and more expensive equipment didn't address the basic deficit of me being a talentless git. And yet here I am again ... :rolleyes:

[Nikolas]

All set up for a viewing tonight and now high wispy clouds are gonna make me very very angry:sadeyes:

[Nikolas]

ok clearing up going out later as saturn is too low and I'm gonna TRY the sombrero galaxy

[Nikolas]

Had all sort of mount issues as I'm not sure of the named stars and was not in a position to sit there, study star charts etc to find sombrero so took my first ever pic of Saturn with this scope, seeing was about a 6, 5dmark2iso 3200 eos movrec (mac version of eos capture zoomed 5x) 4x powermate stacked in autostakkert, slight wavelet adjustment in registax then cs6 for some final sharpening, I'm fairly happy for a first effort despite tracking issues etc.
This scope has sooo much potential.

136359

[wasyoungonce]

Very nice Nick

Snapped a very nice Saturn indeed. You have a good scope!;)

[Moon]

I was planing to reduce the number of scopes I have, but in the end I kept it mainly for the total eclipse.

Alex used some of my images from the ED127 for his awesome eclipse video
http://vimeo.com/54017986

This was my attempt at a video using the same raw data from the ED27:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppqWrObHKoE


For some reason I still haven't posted any of my other eclipse images online. I must get around to that soon.

As to the quality of the scope, I think all the images posted online speak for themselves. If you look at lots and lots of them very carefully (as I have done) you will get a good idea where it stands.

James

[David Niven]

Well done Nikolas.
Yes, i do agree. This ED127 has a lot of potential and it is our skill that's lacking mostly.

[brian nordstrom]

:eyepop: Woaw ! its looking like these ED127mm triplets are ( Already have ) going to be the next ED80 ,
I pay'd $1000 for my ED 80 in 2005 , and that was a steal !.
Good on all who have got one now , the best buy in astronomy today ..

Brian.

[whzzz28]

They arn't bad for the price; so long as you realize that the chromatic aberrations aren't as well controlled as most ED80's.

That being said - i was going to look at purchasing one again, but an ED80 @ f4.8 is keeping me amused for now.

[Nikolas]

I need a heavier duty mount, my cg5 struggles with this scope the guidescope, and dslr.
neq6 pro good?

[jjjnettie]

I dug out my fringe killer. Going to see if it makes any difference to those big blue halos that this scope is prone to make on those really bright stars.
The extra 47mm of aperture makes this scope definitely superior to the ED80 regardless of the halo problem. (which I really don't see as a problem, it's like defraction spikes that are inherent in an image from a newt. you don't like them, don't use that scope )
I'm keeping my ED80 though. We've travelled a long road together and I'm very fond of it.

Nik, I'm using a "finder guider" with my ED127. It keeps the weight down tremendously.

[Nikolas]

Removed the dewcap yesterday, got better tracking but the mount still struggles.
I'll be on the market for an neq6 pro as my current setup weighs 14 kg with the dslr attached, damn 5dmark2 weighs a bit.
This way I may also attach my 10 inch dob for some quick and easy planetary pics.
variable seeing last night, lots of heat haze and some smoke haze.
136462

[David Niven]

I thought, I might add a bit of extra to my NG Ed127, so the laser is mounted and ready...but the legality question still bug me!
And though it is just 1mw, it is awfully bright.
I have it mounted but have still to use it.
Anyone actually started using one?
Despite all the discussions, there is no clarity to the question.

[jjjnettie]

I went to my local police station and informed them that I own a laser pointer.
In QLD one has to belong to an astro society to be able to have one. But I explained that there is no society closer than Brisbane to me, and he said it was ok.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Fortunately, in Western Australia, we have a sensible law regarding GLL's. It is simply classed as a "prohibitive weapon", which simply means that you have to have a legitimate reason for owning one, with astronomy listed as a legitimate reason. Don't have to have a license, don't have to belong to a club.

They annoying thing is that these laws are not uniform around Australian so if I visit the east states, say in a trip around Australia, I would have to leave the laser at home. This seems so ridiculous, since it is an integral part of my setup. :sadeyes:

Cheers Peter

[LewisM]

A differing opinion...

I had an ED127 - Nathan's in fact. I couldn't get over the blue fringe and the soft looking focus, so I traded it off. In my opinion, the ED80 performs better all around, as does an ED100.

I'd have to say it is the most disappointing scope I have had, and it had all the bells and whistles upgrades. I'd get the FHWM to damn near perfect, and the images were still fluffy with chromatic abberation. Almost as much CA as the 150mm Skywatcher achromat I had.

And that's NOT being a snob as I have had one.

[johnt]

That sounds surprising compared to what most people say. Perhaps that one was below average in the batch, or not adjusted properly?

Could you say what focal length that 150mm Skywatcher was please. I think they were either F5 (750mm) or F8 (1200mm).

[Nikolas]

I'd say yours was the exception to the rule.

[Ian Flowes]

These reviews suggest otherwise,

http://www.cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=2829

http://deepspaceplace.com/ed127.php

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=explore%20scientific%20ed127%20re view&source=web&cd=10&ved=0CGcQFjAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.skynews.ca%2FP DFs%2Fexplore-scientific-review.pdf&ei=brV3Udi9CsyWiQeZkoCoDA&usg=AFQjCNG1T5Tgi7YonlseOKWeHm22QIB OKg&bvm=bv.45580626,d.aGc

Perhaps they were wrong and someone here is correct...but??

[brian nordstrom]

:shrug: For $1199 , "Dont worry Be happy " , I was with the one I owned , lovely scope it was .
The only reason I sold it was to get my awsome Takahashi Mewlon 210 DK .
There is a hole in my pocket dear Liza , dear Liza ......;) .

These are the deal of the decade with a 100% return guarentee , sweet man .
Brian.

[johnt]

Brian, on the part about "100% return guarantee", can you elaborate on your experience, or what that statement is based on?

[wasyoungonce]

I can reply to this.

I returned my optics direct to NG as I thought it had a little bit too much off axis CA, most which could be carefully focused out (it was around 4 months old, this was a few years ago). However, I was unsure as any CA was a little off axis but no-one could really agree if this was ok or not.

So I returned it and NG replaced the LENS cell no questions asked. New cell has far less hue and any such is on-axis easily focused out. NG Paid for shipping both ways and all, took 2 weeks.

In fact NG was very helpful and went over the top in assistance arranging for pick-up of my lens cell and return to mu doorstep.

Cannot ask for better than that.

[LewisM]

I am happy to accept the one I had was deficient in some way. I will run through the issues I had, some perhaps trivial, others not:

1. tube rings required additional felt lining. As it was, the tube would slip, significantly, and you could NOT tighten the clamps further

2. Dew shield was shoddy. I had to rework it. One screw was bent (never rectified it), the paint inside the dewshield was flaking and exposing the carbon fibre fibres, and the dew shield would not always align properly and would infringe on images. I flocked the dew shield, which improved it

3. the entire lens cell was wobbly and misaligned. The screws which secured it were loose, and required work. The securing points are insufficient

4. There was significant crud BETWEEN lenses. Also, paint would fall onto the rear of the objective quite frequently, exposing the fact that the anti-reflection paint they use is dodgy.

5. focus - never got truly sharp focus. Good FHWM numbers, using a robofocus on a moonlite focuser (since the original focusers are sub-standard, though I believe that has changed), but images were "fuzzy" or soft. I have noted that in a LOT of ED127 imagery.

6. Chromatic Abberation was excessive.

That was my scope. A friend had one that performed even worse, being severely mis-collimated and was returned to North Group for replacement.

Now, Explore Scientific may select the "cream" of the crop, not sure. I know that the original owner of mine imported it directly from China.

Aperture does not replace quality. It seems mine was an exceptionally poor example. The new owner seems moderately happy with it,though the same guy did warn me of NG "batches" prior to me purchasing it. I traded the NG for an R200SS :)

[whzzz28]

At the end of the day, you pay for what you get i guess.

I would be a bit concerned though buying this scope through VTI based on the conditions of purchase they have.
Scratch marks... hmm ok i guess.
Finger marks? No way i would accept a lens/telescope that is sold as brand new if it has finger marks. That's just sloppy as all hell.
And i think by having the terms it pretty much confirms the scopes do have the aforementioned problems.

But again - for $1100, the majority of the scopes are probably fine for most.

[g__day]

The not performing to expectations is a worry - if those expectations - like being an apo are stated. If one were to buy that item on a Australian credit card - each of those issues would be grounds for repudiation (chargeback to the merchant from the Card issuer) of the charges under the credit card act.

So a merchant selling goods in Australia with conditions of payment that violate elements of the Australian Banking Payments code and Credit Card acts sounds worrying. Wonder if entering a contract that attempts to diminish these acts lessens your rights as a consumer or are futile statements that Visa or Mastercard would simply shrug off?

[LewisM]

It is of course interesting and pertinent to note that VTI disclaim already the fact of soft focus and coma abberation.

As Nathan said, at the end of the day, the choice is entirely yours. Nathan wasn't happy with his, and nor I after I bought it.

I was bitten by the "larger aperture refractor" bug, but quickly learnt you do indeed get what you pay for. You may get very lucky and get a good one, but you may get one like the one Nathan and I got.

[Larryp]

I have not had a 127mm, but did have a 102mm, and I have to agree with your sentiments, Lewis. By the time I replaced the focuser with a Moonlite, it was no longer a cheap scope, and the Stellarvue 90mm I have now is vastly superior.

[casstony]

For the price I think cosmetic defects on the tube, or parts needing adjustment is ok, but the objective should have no permanent defects (eg. scratches in the coatings, finger prints that can't be removed). I belatedly had my objective replaced when I discovered that the fingerprints wouldn't clean off - during the cleaning attempt I discovered an inch long, shallow scratch in the coating as well, with the q-tip catching on the scratch.

[allan gould]

I am continually amazed at the inability of most people to understand that you get what you pay for. Have a look at posts 11, 13 and 16 in this thread ,on the first page. The scopes now coming out of North group are of two types _ the better and more expensive have the japanese glass while those that are less expensive have the chinese glass. They just are not the same scopes in either fit or function. No wonder there is now a discaimer on the VTI site about the performance of the lower priced scopes.

[LewisM]

Agreed Laurie. At the time, I was tossing up between the Vixen FL102S, and the NG127. Aperture fever bit me, I initially went NG127. BAD BAD BAD mistake!

I quickly contacted the Vixen seller again, and I was LUCKY, and have NEVER turned back, as the Vixen - which was even cheaper than the fully upgraded NG127 - is indeed leaps and bound ahead of the NG. Simply no comparison.

Roll the dice, place your bets. The decision is entirely the purchasers.

[johnt]

Your comment on the two different Lenses, Do you know that as a fact, or are you making this assumption? I was under the impression that the more expensive "brand named" Explore Scientific version was the same (including the lens), but probably has some extra quality control (perhaps at the factory, and at Explore Scientific HQ) associated with it.

[LewisM]

Precisely Allan.

Whilst I concede that the price is alluring, as I and a few others have said, you get what you pay for. Are you willing to bet $1100 on a "maybe performing" scope, that if you purchase from VTI or similar, you cannot return due to non-performance???? In the end, like me, you'll fork out the money, do a bunch of fixes and upgrades, decide it just is not worth it, and resell it at a loss.

VTI's statement/disclaimer speaks VOLUMES. Ignore it's implications and ramifications at peril.

[johnt]

My understanding is that VTI added those disclaimers very recently, only about one week ago.

[Ian Flowes]

...but these independent reviews speak volume that this is a very good scope and the glass is always FPL51. There is no mention of soft focus anywhere in these many unrelated reviews and these reviews are trust worthy. I own one too and over a few good nights, I look hard and long and I have to say, there is no soft focus issue. There was a slight hint of ca at high mag for bright objects.
Overall, I am a happy owner and user.

Allan, can you point us to the source of your information about new scopes with new glass coming out from NG?
I doubt the accuracy of your statement, as even the correct ES models are using the same FPL51 glass.

[Ian Flowes]

Hoya fcd1 glass which is FPL51 equivalent....

[allan gould]

Ian
Sorry but I purchased my 5" scope before this flurry ie about 4-5 years ago. There were two hand picked scopes that were sent to Australia for evaluation. The first was snapped up by the importer who offered me the second scope but I did so on the proviso that it was a true Apo and all that that entailed or I would return it. After evaluating it for a few weeks I purchased the scope and have been extremely happy with it.
From the importer I learned about the different glasses ie Japanese hand figured which is mine and the Chinese machine figured objectives. The glass is not FPL51 but in fact is Japanese HOYA FCD1 (Dense Fluor Crown) glass in the initial scopes. They are indeed different formulated glass but used for the same corrective purposes.
The other fact about the movement of the optician that used to align the triplet objective leaving NG to go to Taiwan i was also informed by the same source.
These are the facts as given to me and my scope certainly backs up all that I have seen in the ensuing years, having looked through quite a few of them.
I'll keep my scope as I know it's heritage and also it's performance characteristics. I'll stack it up against any of these other scopes because I know I got a "cherry picked", hand-figured scope and I did pay a lot more at the time for it.
Allan

[Ian Flowes]

Yes, all the reviews say fcd1 Hoya.
So, Allan, this is just mouth to mouth ?
Any other information that there are now new scopes with new glass?
Is this info on Google search?
Would be interesting information if you could point to the source, so it could be shared, as I certainly have not seen any.

[LewisM]

Ian, are you willing to post some images taken with your example? I will have a dig around for mine - likely on an older external terrabyte harddrive.

Maybe what I call soft, you yourself find acceptable. I guess it is all subjective.

But, VTI would not have added the disclaimer based solely on hearsay here on IIS. They obviously had unsatisfied customers returning them at a high enough rate, so added the disclaimer.

[wasyoungonce]

Look the Vti comments are a little out of context...they do state if you want TAK performance buy a TAK....however that said they make no such comments for the ES127ED.

Which in itself is interesting. Basically you you are undecided then buy the ES127ED it's a priced very reasonably.

[johnt]

Happy to know that at one stage in the past there was a "better" lens being used, and some lucky people have got the older version with the better lens. Great.

However, it has been suggested here in this discussion that "today", "right now" there are two types of lenses being used, one for the cheap $1199 version, and one for the more expensive Explore Scientific version. I guess what I would like to know is if this is actually based on "Fact", or just a guess based on emotions, and what was in the past?? Does anyone actually know?

[allan gould]

If you know how to use the Internet then these are the specifications of the 127mm scope under question when it was first released..........

At f/7.48 the focal ratio of this OTA is tailored for fast wide field astrophotography and uses the finest Japanese FCD1 ED glasses (Extremely Low Dispersion glass). ED glasses were created to achieve a very small change in the refractive index at different wavelengths of light. This makes the Scope an excellent, affordable choice for a fast ratio, high performance optical work. Its fully multi-coated lenses ensure maximum light transmission from a triplet air-spaced optical design providing very good overall colour correction.

SPECIFICATIONS:

- Aperture: 127mm fully mutli-coated ED triplet.
- Air spaced optics hand figured glasses.
- Focal Length: 950mm - f/7.48
- Full multi-coated lenses
- Solid Aluminum optical tube (white)
- Full internal blackening and baffling
- 2-inch 10:1 Crayford focuser
- 1.25 -inch eyepiece adaptor
- Weight 7.1 Kgs
- Dimensions - 84.6 x 15.6 cm

you will note that it states the glass is FCD1 ED glass and that the triplette is made from Japanese hand figured glass.
All of these statements have been stated previously by me and were true in 1998-9. If you can prove my statements incorrect then do so.
If you can prove that the current NG scopes have the same specifications then show me.
Allan

[wasyoungonce]

Well it all started back in 2006 (edit: actually 2008 not 2006) when My Astroshop imported 127s with a new middle lens (actually they changed the middle lens) ...a secret formula hand finished (as I am lead to believe they all are hand finished) and sold them as Prostar telescope. Now the price was around $3k incl ML focuser etc which IMHO was a good buy back then. Very tempting.

Now since then (around 2010/11) there has been discussion that this centre lens has changed from the original or the lenses are made somewhere else or use different materials (as they started ES127 sales).... I don't know but I suspect there are a lot of stories and little facts on this and a lot of emotion, this I do know.

I spoke to Gilman regarding the middle lens type when I purchased mine (in 2010), specifically asking for "the new lens" material.

He stated that yes there was a change back around 2005/6 (really not sure) and they they changed the lens material and grind hand finish and this had been that way for the newer 127s since then.

Now fast forward many years.....I do not know if they have changed the lens again or have changed the source of OEM grinding. These Chinese companies have a massive umbrella of influence and they make the same scopes branded as Meade and Celestron.

But you have to ask why sell ES127s at $1999 and same scope with different badge at $1200. I suspect that the the cheaper OTAs are the ones that didn't pass ES QA but this is pure pure speculation by me.

So, is the new lenses different...well up to 2010 they weren't unless I was told " not the truth" and have they changed since...I cannot say.

Am I happy with my 127 yes...I can even show interferometer tests done by physicists doing after market testing for shops in Germany. Those Germans like quantification on their products. The tests came up very well...unless of course they got the magic "special centre lens" units to test!:lol:

edit: the only query I have is that the Prostar was listed as F7.5, yet some articles say 952mm FL some 950mm and 127mm@F7.5 = 952.5mm, so I don't know if this is the difference. If it is less than F7.5 then all lenses must be made to match otherwise they would not meet at common FL point..

[johnt]

It has been suggested in this discussion that TODAY (2013) there are TWO types of lenses being used, one for the cheap $1199 version, and one for the more expensive $1999 Explore Scientific version. OK, it looks as though this is probably not true (ie. the same lens is probably used for both), and it probably comes down to better quality control for the $1999 version compared to the $1199.

[wasyoungonce]

I'm leaning this way....I suspect the Chinese still have a way to go with QA and ES does rejects some OTAs. I don't know I have heard this before but it's speculation.

However, one thing ...you will not be told by the OEM and no one in a position that knows is saying! So if your not sure...buy the ES127 you cannot go wrong for the price.

Maybe Astro Optical should re-start selling the Prostar units with tricked out ML focuser etc? I reckon they'd gets sales these days and indeed..or better yet the new 150mm ED's...Hmmmm.

[brian nordstrom]

;) Yes Brendon you are bang on .
My NG ( North Group are a different scope ) 127mm triplet had excellent optics easily taking 300x plus on the moon and planets .
As you all know I sold that scope to get a TAK M210 but now also own an Istar 127mm Achro and comparing these 2 127mm's was fun , up to 200x there was nothing between them but at the 250x the APO wins every time . But my TAK M210 is only idiling at that kind of magnifaction tho and easily takes 500x on a good night , so yes if you want Takahashi/AstroPhysics performance then buy one and be happy .

If like most and cant afford 3-15k on a scope get one of these for $1200 , good value .

By the way my Istar cost all of $630aud all up and I am very happy with its performance ( she's a lowely old Achromat , but a good one ) , but hey ,and she aint no Takahashi ! you get what you pay for I'm afraid so here is a photo of her .
Brian.

[Ian Flowes]

Lewis, I am not into astrophoto yet.
I have read many, many reviews and non mentioned soft focus. They did say, there was a slight hint of ca and the focuser isn't exactly first class but still good enough to use.
You yourself say it is subjective so I will go with these reviews, not your subjective comment, as these numerous reviews could not be wrong.
As for the comment that today there are two type of glass used in the ED127, where is the proof? Sound more like someone fertile imagination.
So more myth than fact!

[johnt]

The Prostar version will no longer be available, according to my conversation on the phone with Steve (MyAstroShop). I was also told that it was no longer possible to get those "Special Lenses" that he was getting for the "Prostar" (the special and more expensive ($3000) version of the ED127). There was also a mention of the Japanese maker (at the Chinese factory) having gone back to Japan, and that was the main reason for the "Special Lens" no longer being available. So, maybe this "Special Lens" was mainly the result of the more work, and expertise that went into making those lenses, by that Japanese lens maker, rather than just the sort of glass that was being used. That special lens was also probably the lens that may have been on all of the very early ED127 versions. So, all this seems to support our "guess", that at the present time, there is probably only one lens, for both ED127, and the Explore Scientific ED127.

[brian nordstrom]

:shrug: +1 as well Ian .
soft... cokc
soft .... lillies
soft ..... focus ? yes .
Being an owner of a Fluorite refractor soft focus is real ,
My SKY90 does it well , nice , my FS60C did it , my ED80 almost did did ( FPL53 ) true if there is a better light transmitter than Fluorite ??? lets all retire ..
Brian.

[Hagar]

Interesting comments Ian, You state you own one of these scopes and notice some mild CA yet are not prepared to accept Allans thoughts on this scope without proof perfect. You will believe the majority on other sites and while this thread has come an gone over the years with review after review the comments here seem to carry no weight.
You state you are yet to venture into Astrophotography and I can assure you if your scope shows mild CA it might be worth not pursuing this with this scope as the results will only be elevated to new highs.

I have seen several of these scopes over the years and to be honest they were just crap. CA, sloppy focuser and crappy lens cells. There has been a few good ones but they were few and far between.:help:

[johnt]

I guess the question about astrophotography or simply viewing is quite relevant here. If its mainly astro photography, where aperture can be traded for extra exposure time, then the choice is much greater, so going for "small" and "very high quality" seems the way to go. But for those of us that just want to use a Refractor for Viewing, then the attraction for that extra aperture, for extra brightness, perhaps traded for a little less quality, is more luring.

So, what about this question for those that think the ED127 is not quite good enough: If it has to be a "Refractor", for "Viewing", with "around 127mm aperture", for say around $1200 (the price of the VTI ED127), then if it's not going to be an ED127, then what else instead ? Is there something else for that sort of money that is better?

I know, someone could say that you don't need 127mm, someone else could say go for a SCT etc. etc. But, I guess the question here is more specific: "Refractor, Viewing, 127mm".

[wavelandscott]

I am not an expert on this scope but have looked through a few...they are okay for visual but not perfect. You have asked the question in such a way so that the answer is likely not much is better in that price size range...from the scopes I have looked through I think it is a stretch to think about them as an APO...I thought APOish but in the ones I looked through I could see some color...enough to be distracting to me but I am a bit picky that way...if color is not an objection, you might look at some Achros for similar bang for buck...like some of the Ishtar scopes. In either case I prefer a reflector view (or quality APO) to what I saw through similar scopes. This is only my opinion and your experience may vary.

These scopes are not bad and for the money do represent good value but don't confuse them with world quality APO gear. It is all a matter of expectation and intended use. Wide field deep sky low power stuff should be okay. High power may be a bit disappointing depending on you experience and expectations...

[Nikolas]

What about those on this forum who have one and swear by them?
Do those people not count?

[wasyoungonce]

John start off with something more modest, a 127 is a big scope, maybe an ED80.

Doug, agreed the 127ED has deficiencies the focuser is one however this is the same as sold on the ES127 and they sell these by the "container loads". Many people replace their focusers even on TAKs. I like others put on a ML.

Sure there are things not to like about the 127ED but IMHO visual...excellent for the dollars paid, astrophotography....as I said I sent my lens cell back and got a new one and I'm happy with the performance of this. Using a FL reducer....makes this scope a very nice light gathering bucket, not perfect but pretty good, enough for price. On this point the OEM promised an OEM FR/FF unit that never arrived...very disappointing...however they would have made a 2" unit in any-case which I probably wouldn't buy. Many users have the WO Pflat IV which works very well with this scope.

The rings, they are pretty good, much better than sky-watcher types. I'd like rings with a bigger flat "land" so you could have 3 screw points on the bottom to fit Losmandy dovetail plates ...I purchased Parallax rings for this.

The Lens cover...made to stop bullets...too big and easy to crash into the lens when putting on off, I don't use it. The Dew Shield...too heavy for purpose.

The finder scope..it's ok has an amici prism so it's right way up but it suffers from edge astigmatism...probably from the prism.

But hundreds upon hundreds of users of this scope and it's variants...I cannot hear a resounding din of discourse. It's probably all up to what you expect for this price..if you expect TAK perfection ...then keep saving:lol:.

[wasyoungonce]

Well I don't swear by them...they are good for price and I get the performance I expect and a little bit more but I did put in extra money on a focuser etc. It's a matter of expectation. I like my images...when I produce reasonable ones, which is rare and I have produced plenty of bad ones.

But like all doing astrophotography it's a lot to do with processing and cameras and the skill of the user. Gary Honis is proof of the scopes performance.. Would I prefer a TAK...sure...but not the bill so it's all about what you expect and what you are prepared to pay.

Same with cars...want Porsche performance and reliability...buy a Porsche.

[jjjnettie]

I'm very happy with mine. It's great value for money.
Personally I'm not out to make scientifically perfect images and I can live with a little CA and "soft focus".
If I had the dosh I would have gone for a Tak, but this is what I could afford so I'm going to make the very best of it. :)

I totally agree with you Brendan.
The scope doesn't make the imager, experience and skill does.

[allan gould]

Now thats being a realist JJJ. Enjoy your scope and use it well. Some of the images you have produced so far are excellent.

[Astro_Bot]

May I ask how that fringe killer worked out?


Do you use the regular finderscope mounting or a more robust rings/accessory rail arrangement?


@ anyone: Would it be fair to characterise the Hioptic ED127 as a semi-APO?

[LewisM]

By all means enjoy the scopes for what they are, but just be warned there are numbers of less than stellar performing ones out there. As I said, roll the dice, you may get lucky, or you may throw your money away.

The one I had was inferior to anything I had used up to that point and since. Perhaps the aluminium tube ones are different, because the carbon fibre tube ones have issues.

[casstony]

Yes it's a semi-apo, for two reasons:

Chromatic aberration: blue is slightly out of focus from the other wavelengths and;

Spherochromatism: while the scope may have a high strehl in one colour (.95 or better) spherical aberration brings the performance down at other wavelengths.

It's still a decent scope providing you get a good sample, but if you pay a multiple of it's price you can get a full apochromat with high strehl across the visual wavelengths and further.

[jjjnettie]

TBO, I've not tried it out yet.
I'll give it a whirl tonight on Saturn, as I get a fair amount of blue on it.
I attach the finder guider to the handle via a dove tail attachment.
Definitely a semi-apo.

[Nikolas]

If it's all the same Porsche and reliability are an oxymoron ;)

[Astro_Bot]

Thanks Tony and JJJ. :thumbsup:

[Hagar]

My statement did not exclude the few that were reasonable. See below:

I have seen several of these scopes over the years and to be honest they were just crap. CA, sloppy focuser and crappy lens cells. There has been a few good ones but they were few and far between.

It really depends on what you call reasonable. Based on cost at around $1200 they are a bargain and may be worth investing in repair but if the lens and lens cell is crap then no amount of work barring replacing the cell will give you a good APO or semi APO.
I have for many years bought scopes of all types and denominations but in reality the Takahashi Refractors have always been a world above the rest.
Take what you want from these comments as I'm sure you will.

My discussion is done.

[brian nordstrom]

:question: Thats strange Nettie , I am out now looking at saturn thru my Istar 127mm f/8 achro and the only thing I see is a bit of sky glow with the moon being close by , zero CA on saturn .
I do see a bit on jupiter and the moons limb with the Istar but it's very well controlled but tonight saturn is totally colour free , even at 200x using my 5mm Vixen LV , really nice in the WO bino viewers , ( see my thread in 'observational and visual' I just posted )
My now sold NG127mm APO was totally colour free on all objects up to 350x or so , so it must have been a good one , except the focuser was rubbish :sadeyes: , hence it got the FT3035 it deserved .
Heading back outside now, its such a lovely night up here tonight .
Brian.

[casstony]

I think Nettie is commenting from an imaging perspective Brian, where the Blue shows up more readily.

I get negligible CA on the Moon's limb visually - was looking at the moon between clouds before and could see the main craterlets in Plato at 100x - haven't had good conditions to properly try out the lens.

[brian nordstrom]

:) Thanks Tony , do you think an Ha filter would clean up the blue for imaging ?
Brian.

[h0ughy]

I have had my 127ED for some time now - one of the first batch that got one from Northgroup. yeah the focuser was crud - changed that for a moonlight motorised one - almost doubled the price ;) of the scope but i love it. Its had a hard life but with a field flattener it was performing quite well. its given me lots of memories, processing nightmares and now is performing as a solar scope with a baader solar wedge. Bang for bucks - sure thing. When i eventually get good at it i may buy a tak, until then it will be my long suffering workhorse. I have heaps of other scopes but none match the versatility of this one.

[jjjnettie]

It's cloudy tonight so I didn't get a chance to try out the fringe killer.

Here is an example of the blue I'm getting around Saturn.
And a pic of the image tidied up.
I also imaged the Moon last night and got nary any fringing at all.
Go figure. :shrug:

Anyway, I usually use my 10"Newt for Planetary away so it's a moot point really.

[wasyoungonce]

Well jjjnettie an image speaks a 1000 words...your scope is spot on and a damn nice image to boot! There is no fringing!

Well done...I am envious...I have so much on my plate I'd love to be emulating you. You have really progressed over the years and a big thumbs up:thumbsup:from me.

[Kunama]

Nice imaging jjj, seems like overall the scope is excellent value for $1200
and especially for visual use there seems to be little competition at that price point. It would be hard to justify paying triple or quadruple the amount unless one's income was based on the difference.



Look forward to seeing more of your pics.

[casstony]

I have very little experience with imaging Brian, but isolating any color will obviously get rid of other colors. The 127ed performs best in red so sharpest images should come from using a good quality red filter, theoretically.

Your Istar will have been supplied with a test certificate performed at it's best corrected wavelength; if that's around the 650nm of Ha then that filter should give the sharpest image through your scope.

I'm not sure why many of the Chinese scopes are tuned to red rather than the middle of the visual spectrum (ie. green).

[casstony]

Maybe the difference in magnification shows the blue more readily on Saturn?

[Richard Gamble]

Comparing a 7 grands tak with a 1200 NG ED is just so absurd!
Are tak owners felt threaten by a humble NG?
Hope all these needless comparison will stop.

[LewisM]

I was going to mention this some time back, but thought it pointless, and probably still is.

At the time I bought my lemon NG127, I was also offered a Vixen FL102S. The Vixen was $1500, with new Moonlite focuser, Losmandy D rail and included the original focuser too. The NG127 offered only the Moonlite focuser, robofocus and some Televue adapters for the odd size focuser. That was $2200.

I bought the NG127, thinking the aperture would compensate. OH, how VERY wrong I was, and VERY VERY quickly re-organised to purchase the Vixen FL102S, which was not only cheaper, but LIGHT YEARS ahead in every single way, especially INCREIBLE optics (base standard FL102S were Strehl 0.995. I have since had this one reported - seeing it is an AD-VIX branded one, which is INTERNAL JAPANESE MARKET / Hand select only - at Strehl 0.998).

So, I am VERY at liberty to compare a Vixen Fl102S to the NG127.

Simply, there is NO COMPARISON. NIL.

[Nikolas]

Fixed