What's going on in the middle of Australia?

[Stardrifter_WA]

APOD shows an updated picture of the Earth at Night. http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap121207.html

But what is going on?

This picture shows more light in the middle of Australia than around the coast.

Can this be right :question:

[DavidTrap]

And very dark over Indonesia & PNG...

DT

[JB80]

Good point, I noticed that too.

Surely it can't be mines, I'd be curious to know. I'm calling shenanigans.

I don't like this apod much, it's far more depressing than the other one.

[Rodstar]

Peter, I had precisely the same thought when I saw that. Makes no sense at all.

[MikeyB]

The only thing those could be is minesites. I'm surprised by the apparent brightness and extent though.

[JB80]

I guess it could be, if you look up between the UK and Norway you can see the oil platforms too.

[Forgey]

Looks like the mines, my brother is over in Newman at the mines and its in that area where its all lit up.

[Stardrifter_WA]

I very much doubt whether there are that many big mine sites, as most of the area show are reserves and desert, apart from Alice Springs and surrounds.

[MikeyB]

The lights seem to be displaced well to the East of the actual major mining centres. Maybe the kangaroos are up to something, out there in the saltbush and spinifex country?

[Rob_K]

Min min lights? :lol:

Plenty of other anomolies being pointed out:
http://asterisk.apod.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30321

Whatever the infrared imager is picking up, it ain't necessarily city lights.

Cheers -

[MikeyB]

The mystery lights are outback wildfires, according to the linked video halfway down that page - I wouldn't have guessed that!

[hotspur]

Seems most strange-looks like the Tanami desert area.

Even if mine lighting showed up,there would not be that much so
wide spread.Hope to read an explanation for the showing on image.

Maybe someones just bodgyed up an image and put it up hopping
no one would notice.

[adman]

Very dodgy...!

Maybe if its imaging in IR it is picking up hot rocks in the desert :shrug:. It also seems to have missed or underrepresented several big urban areas. Look at Sydney for instance. It looks barely bigger than the lights on Groote Eylandt in the gulf of capentaria - and you would be hard pressed spotting the town there when you are IN it, let alone from several hundred kilometres away...:lol:

I also don't believe the outback lights are wildfires. I think we might have heard about those

[TrevorW]

Campfires

[Sarge]

And Darwin seems to have almost disappeared! :question:

Clear skies

Rod
:D:D

[OICURMT]

http://youtu.be/Q3YYwIsMHzw?hd=1

I see quite a few areas that hold my interest...



Nile River Valley
Fishing boats off the coast of Perú ?
Barrow Alaska
Would have expect a light (or two) around McMurdo and Mawson stations
Four dots around Greenland... ships I assume?
The North Sea is well lit up !
If I had to guess, I'd say there's a dot for Barrow Island
Love the outline of India, you can tell where India stops and Pakistan starts.

[OICURMT]

I believe that...

When there was no direct flight to Barrow, I used to fly via Karratha and we'd always see smoke off in the distance.

[LAW]

Check out the sizes of the 'patches' in the 'patchwork quilt'. They easily cover 2-3 timzones in each frame so there would be uneven lighting.

Still doesn't explain why WA is so bright, just why east coast and png are dark.

[pgc hunter]

No mine sites in those areas though. The mines are further west and north. The areas which are lit up on that image are literally deserted, one of the emptiest parts of Australia.

The only plausible explanation I can think of is lightning from thunderstorms. Thunderstorms in that area are actually fairly common.

[allan gould]

Reported on SBS news that it's due to bush fires.

[marki]

There really isn't that much fuel for a bushfire that large. Most fires up there last 2 mins and all the spinifex is consumed. Looks doctored to me or a real camera fail.

Mark

[Danack]

I wonder if it may be at least partly an algorithm fail.

My understanding is that they took pictures on lots of of nights and then used used the results that had the brightest pictures to be included in the final picture.

For the rest of the world, this means that the nights most free of clouds were used.

For Australia, it means that if there was a bushfire on any of the nights that a region was being imaged, then that nights image would be used, as it would obviously be brighter than every other night.


Even if that's the case, there still seem to be too many fires in the west - there should be relatively more in Norther Queensland surely?

[adman]

The bushfires would be massive - bigger than anything we have ever had. Those lights in WA dwarf the metropolitan areas of Sydney, Brisbane and Melbourne combined - several times over. Same problem with the idea of mine sites. The areas involved are just too big.

[sheeny]

Noctilucient camels?:P

Al.

[Kunama]

Nothing out there except dust, saltbush and flies.

Maybe the flies have invented headlights!

[AndrewJ]

Up in the Pilbara region i would expect some lights
as those places dont know the meaning of reducing
light pollution, but the lower middle regions are
not that bright.
Which brings to light :D the question,
where are places like Moomba and the Qld coal mines
which are also rather "bright" at night.

Andrew

comparing this piccy to prev "visible spectrum" sky at night piccies
its a very different result.

[Barrykgerdes]

They left the infra red filter off the camera. No other "light" source could be so wide spread.

Barry

[hotspur]

Certainly a lot of people here scratching their heads-and for good reason,the only plausible explanation is lightning from thunderstorms,but that seems odd-its the desert not much thunderstorm activity there.

Really does add weight to many other IIS members thoughts that APOD images are slipping (personally I did not agree with their thoughts on Tuc47),but many here did,and this image is very questionable-I've seen similar styles of images-and Sydney has much more light that desert country.

Its a shame APOD standards are slipping:(

[big_dav_2001]

Just had a look on Google Earth, and to me, it looks like possibly moonlight being reflected off dry salt lakes and small lakes in the area...

Maybe, because the surrounds are so dark, the heat and light signatures stand out to the satellites like proverbial canine testicles, and cause a hit from the algorythm??

Do a google search for Plumridge Lakes just NE of Kalgoolrie, Ruddall river National Park (Lake Dissapointment, Lake Blanche and Lake Dora) and another big hit around Lake Mackay, all look to me to be in the approximate areas of some of the bigger light areas in WA... (I layered the NASA image over a Google map image and attached it)...

Plenty of small reflective salt deposits out there...I dont know exactly if thats it, but thats my thoughts..

Edit: Also just spotted a light hit near the area of the Bonneville Salt Flates in America.. Could be Salt Lake city, but seems pretty big and bright...

Davin

[sheeny]

Good thinking Davin! You might be onto something there.

Al.

[hotspur]

Looks an interesting line of thought Davin,be good to follow that up some more.:thumbsup:

[OICURMT]

Guys, honestly, there are a lot of bush fires in WA...

Watch these sites for a few days...

http://www.dfes.wa.gov.au/alerts/Pages/default.aspx

http://www.dfes.wa.gov.au/alerts/Pages/alertsmap.aspx


Prescribed Burnings...
http://www.dec.wa.gov.au/management-and-protection/fire/prescribed-burning.html

Up to date information on Facebook
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Association-Of-Volunteer-Bush-Fire-Brigades-of-WA-Inc/143140679086111

[astroron]

On reading the caption, I note that this image is composed of many images taken over a period between April and October, So all the bush fires and other lights are a composition, so they were not all there all at once as is portrade in that image.
Cheers:thumbsup:

[pgc hunter]

Actually thunderstorms are far from rare in those areas. Look at the lightning tracker and radars on Weatherzone and BOM and you'll often see storm activity in the area.

Check out the BOM's annual thunder day map, there is a clear increase in storm days in the region which correlates almost exactly with the lights in the image.

[Richard Gamble]

http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0011/earthlights2_dmsp_big.jpg&imgrefurl=http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap001127.html&h=1200&w=2400&sz=387&tbnid=AGz3qVyUsAkaWM:&tbnh=60&tbnw=120&zoom=1&usg=__X8RCyn20hj-uvEOrltus_1mL50w=&docid=CKvKbQVkZByivM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fpXCUJbmKYWgigevxIGoBA&ved=0CDQQ9QEwAQ&dur=7017

This one shows otherwise.
It depends on the time, the picture was taken and bear in mind it Ozland covers different time zones.

[TrevorW]

Maybe aliens have set up camp in the Great Sandy Desert

[Stardrifter_WA]

Received a reply email from Jerry Bonnell (UMCP) regarding the APOD picture of Earth at Night.

This link explains what is going on.

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/IntotheBlack/page4.php

Mystery solved!

[OICURMT]

Great link...

[mozzie]

it is light up between brisbane and sydney where i live!!!!!!!!!!! and i seen some fire flies last night :rofl:they must be in plaque preportions out west :lol::lol:

[hotspur]

the links an interesting read-looks like astronomers would have even more light pollution if they lived near a dictator.What a odd bit of information,certainly a well written piece.

[Danack]

Apologies if I'm just having a reading comprehension fail - but where does it explain why the middle-west of Australia is so bright compared to the rest of Australia and particularly Sydney which should be brighter?

[Stardrifter_WA]

Jerry Bonnell sent that link as a way of explanation. I don't think it fully explains it, other than it could be a accumulation of data showing wildfires, which are common in the outback.

Cheers Peter

[astroron]

Thats what My post said ;)

Quote
On reading the caption, I note that this image is composed of many images taken over a period between April and October, So all the bush fires and other lights are a composition, so they were not all there all at once as is portrade in that image. (Unquote)
Cheers:thumbsup:

[Stardrifter_WA]

Sorry Ron, missed that one. Wasn't really reading all comments, as I thought the link Jerry Bonnell sent solved the mystery.

Was just answering Dan's specific query.

Cheers Peter :)

[astroron]

Here's an article from the "The Australian" newspaper, I found on my FB page
It explains it all;)
It agrees what I said :P

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/wa-bushfires-light-nasas-black-marble-photo-of-our-planet/story-e6frg6n6-1226533311906
Cheers:thumbsup:

[OICURMT]

Oh thank god... I was going to really throw a fit regarding the complete lack of logic as to what was being seen...

A great explanation as to what is going on.

[Zaps]

An old friend of mine is a brilliant scientist but also a sucker for every nutjob conspiracy theory out there - and I mean Out There!

He is convinced this is all an underhanded attempt by somebody in the US astronomy establishment to "reclaim their night", by undermining dark sites in foreign countries - such as the Australian Outback and the Atacama Coast - while artificially darkening US sites - such as MK - that are suffering growing LP issues.

But that's just crazy talk. Crazy!

:screwy: ;)

[tlgerdes]

Here is the official NASA response

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/NPP/news/aus-fires.html

[adman]

Hmm...

i am still unconvinced about the fires. Look at the image attached and the scale - those are some huge areas for wildfires - some of them a couple of hundred k's across. I know that these images are composites over several nights - but surely they weren't lit up in the same place with each pass, and they could filter out any fires as 'noise' - much the same as stacking astrophotos...?

[astroron]

Why should they filter them out ?

[GraemeT]

They may be almost anything suggested but check this link:
http://www.blue-marble.de/nightlights/2010
from a different source.

[adman]

Well the APOD blurb says...

[Danack]

*FLEX*



That sounds wrong. Fires on the ground aren't going to illuminate the surrounding landscape that much unless the flames are leaping up to a decent height.

What will happen much more is that the smoke from the fire is illuminated from underneath by the fire, which would also help explain why the fires appear so large compared to the city lights.

[OICURMT]

:rolleyes:

[glenc]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-12/explore-nasas-black-marble-earth-at-night/4423768

[TrevorW]

The photo composite is total BS as far as I'm concerned, a large portion of the area has nothing to burn, it' described as city lights on several sights and bush fires on others:question::shrug::screwy:

Seems a lot of bush fires in NW WA but no lights yet a lot of lights and no bush fires shown in other countries so what is it???

:P:thumbsup:

[OICURMT]

Can you be more granular in your statement please and name a few specific areas?

I've taken a close look at the zoomed in areas of WA and there is plenty to burn when you look at the brush concentration in the Percival and Dora lakes and surrounding area.


Also, is there any specific reason why the scientific community at NASA would try to deceive the general population on something they really don't care about and probably never will?

[blink138]

i am inclined to think it is wrong like half of the comments here
the reason being i think we could compare apples with apples here and look at the middle of africa...... experiencing summer (mostly) the same time as oz with more fire risk than us and their interior looks pollution free!
something simply does not look right in australia
pat

[TrevorW]

Gibson Desert, the Great Sandy Desert, very little bushfire material, the link posted by Glenc refers to city lights, where are all the fires in Africa, their bushfire season is from July-October.

So it just so happens no fires where burning in Africa during the nights in October when these images where compiled but a huge number of fires flared in WA over the same period.



No to me it just seems wrong

[blink138]

beat you by one post there trevor, totally agree..... see mine above yours
pat

[TrevorW]

For a comparison this site shows a NASA imagery compilation of Nrth American bush fires July-Oct 2012

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gsfc/8244061593/



Now I'm not saying that it's a conspiracy but

a) what is it really
b) why is it being referred to on several sites as city lights when it's obviously is not

[OICURMT]

Pg 11-13...

[OICURMT]

This years outlook

http://www.bushfirecrc.com/news/news-item/southern-australian-seasonal-bushfire-assessment-2012-13-released

http://www.bushfirecrc.com/managed/resource/southern_outlook_f95_final.pdf

[TrevorW]

Good read would explain somethings, but the extent and intensity indicated from these images seems high considering the bush fires in these regions would be mostly shrub/bush no trees it also seems strange that all those fires occurred in the space of a week or two while the imagery was being compiled or have I read it wrong.

[OICURMT]

Current storm tracker. Click on the Bushfire checkbox to get a "high-level" holistic view of where current bushfires are burning...

http://weather.ninemsn.com.au/stormtracker.jsp


MODIS Image of the Day that coincides with the Bushfires currently burning in QLD (12DEC2012).

http://modis.gsfc.nasa.gov/gallery/individual.php?db_date=2012-12-12

250m resolution http://modis.gsfc.nasa.gov/gallery/images/image12122012_250m.jpg

[Octane]

Let's just put it in the "artists' impression" APOD category and be done with it. :P

H

[TrevorW]

The Black marble imagery is described on the NASA Modis collection as city lights, and used in the APOD, please read the line I have made bold and underlined, this is straight from their site

City Lights of Asia and Australia


http://eoimages.gsfc.nasa.gov/images/imagerecords/79000/79790/city_lights_asia_tn_grid.jpg


Credit:

NASA Earth Observatory image by Robert Simmon, using Suomi NPP VIIRS (http://npp.gsfc.nasa.gov/viirs.html) data provided courtesy of Chris Elvidge (NOAA National Geophysical Data Center (http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/dmsp/dmsp.html)). Suomi NPP is the result of a partnership between NASA, NOAA, and the Department of Defense. Caption by Mike Carlowicz.


This image of Asia and Australia at night is a composite assembled from data acquired by the Suomi NPP satellite (http://npp.gsfc.nasa.gov/) in April and October 2012. The new data was mapped over existing Blue Marble imagery (http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/BlueMarble/) of Earth to provide a realistic view of the planet.

The nighttime view was made possible by the new satellite’s “day-night band” of the Visible Infrared Imaging Radiometer Suite (http://npp.gsfc.nasa.gov/viirs.html). VIIRS detects light in a range of wavelengths from green to near-infrared and uses filtering techniques to observe dim signals such as city lights, gas flares, auroras, wildfires, and reflected moonlight. In this case, auroras, fires, and other stray light have been removed to emphasize the city lights.

“Night time imagery provides an intuitively graspable view of our planet,” says William Stefanov, a scientist in NASA’s International Space Station program office who has worked with similar images from astronauts. “City lights are an excellent means to track urban and suburban growth, which feeds into planning for energy use and urban hazards, for studying urban heat islands, and for initializing climate models.”

Named for satellite meteorology pioneer Verner Suomi, NPP flies over any given point on Earth's surface twice each day at roughly 1:30 a.m. and p.m. The polar-orbiting satellite flies 824 kilometers (512 miles) above the surface, sending its data once per orbit to a ground station in Svalbard, Norway, and continuously to local direct broadcast users distributed around the world. The mission is managed by NASA with operational support from NOAA and its Joint Polar Satellite System, which manages the satellite's ground system.

[OICURMT]

This statement was made in the original article for the cleaned up version of North and South American images. I suspect this statement is in a "general comments" field within the DB Schema and is repeated through tagging in the website, as all articles make *exactly* the same statement, with the first paragraph being image specific.

Also, the conspiracy was directly addressed by NASA here (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/NPP/news/aus-fires.html)



Look, I realize that you "Want To Believe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_X-Files:_I_Want_to_Believe)", but honestly, lex parsimoniae. I may also be wrong, but I view this as a clear prima facie case.

[TrevorW]

Yeah, loved the X-files

"the truth is out there"

ps: on the same site and the APOD they state it's a compilation of images taken from April-Oct and yet on another they state is a compilation of images in a short time frame duing October so what is it.

I'm still amiss as to how such inaccurate statements can be displayed(made) on the NASA and APOD sites.

[Astro_Bot]

The ABC's story:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-20/interactive-nasa-sheds-light-on-mystery-wa-lights/4437664

[astroron]

Just confirms what I said earlier in the thread:D
Cheers:thumbsup:

[blink138]

it still does not explain africa...... their seasons on the whole are our seasons and it clearly looks like, if you believe they are fires, that about 25% of our country goes up in smoke over a two week period?....... strange.
anyhow i think africa should look at least similar or worse
pat

[AstralTraveller]

My thoughts too - though those fires cover <<25% of Oz. There are fires visible in Africa but not nearly as many. If you compare the google map to the satellite images you can work out the fires from the settlements. Maybe the many large herbivores keeps the fuel load down, perhaps Africa is more closely managed and so fires are rarer (note that most fires in Oz are in the least settled areas), or we just got 'lucky' during those few weeks.

[TrevorW]

To true, I did some research and you can see a significant number of fires occurring in Africa over the same period (a lot of Countries in Africa have no fire management)

One comment in the ABC report is

"Aside from the fires, some of the night lights appearing in uninhabited areas can be attributed to natural gas flares, lightning, oil drilling or mining operations, and fishing boats - all of which can show up as points of light"

Fishing boats ??? where in the middle of Australia. look at the rest of the image can anyone see lights from fishing boats

Also look at PNG where are the lights of Port Moresby (they have electricity).

IMO there are anomalies with this image that just don't make sense.